RE: Audi S3 v Seat Leon Cupra R: Blood Bros
Discussion
TORQ said:
Both were on my recent shopping list. Ruled out the S3 due to under steer and dull drive. The Seat simply because of the dreadful centre console. It is like a mid 90s Akai Dixons tape deck. Otherwise it would have been ace.
Went for a like new R32 with Recaro wingbacks. Just felt special...
With the touch screen, the leon console looks perfectly fine.Went for a like new R32 with Recaro wingbacks. Just felt special...
DoubleD said:
kambites said:
Hmm, our Octavia VRS will do high 30s easily on a longish drive and mid-40s if you're really careful. I know the Audi is heavier and more highly tuned but I doubt it'd be that much worse?
You can get mid 40s out of a VRS?! Out of these two, its a tough choice. I pretty much hate nearly all Audis these days, mainly due to the sheer number of bell ends driving them. The Seat Leon is pretty under-rated, but the looks inside and out just don't do it for me. Plus, I still think a "proper" hot hatch should have 3 doors....
My money would go on a Megane 250 Cup. Probably much cheaper than either car and likely much more fun. Before people harp on about Renault reliability, not a lot goes wrong with the Renaultsport versions and VAG reliability isn't anything to write home about. If you don't believe me, read Richard Meaden's end of term report on his 275 Trophy in EVO Magazine this month. Says its one of the very best long term cars he has ever run and was absolutely rock solid.
It's strange how personal opinion can vary the outcome of comparisons like this. Provided you're using a specialist, the difference in running costs (fuel and servicing) is so negligible, that it wouldn't sway me either way.
Styling is also very subjective. What you describe as "more striking exterior styling" of the Leon, I would describe as slightly cheap, almost chav styling, sticking R badges wherever they could )even on the remote key). This seems to be playing more to the stereotypical boy-racer image, especially when compared to the understated class, of the S3's far more subtle aggressiveness. Of course, that's assuming you're buying anything other than the horrible Solar Orange of the one in the article. But having said that, if you can put up with it, the orange paint will get you a year newer, and otherwise identical car for the same money.
Where you say "There's a lack of emotional appeal from behind the wheel of the Audi" you don't say where you think it's lacking. Personally I found the FWD setup of the Leon to be more lacking, because of the typical FWD handling. While I realise that being a Haldex system, the S3 is also mainly FWD for the majority of the time (usually 70:30 front to rear split, not the the "'official' 40:60 front/rear drive set-up" of the Torsen quattro setup in the larger cars in the Audi range, which you seem to have been expecting) once you get used to the characteristics of the system, it's very easy to learn to take advantage of it, and get it to send more power to the back when you want it to, giving far more exciting handling than the Leon, but in a different way.
On getting to a corner, and feeling the front start to drift, and then lifting to stop it drifting straight on with the FWD setup, with the S3, when it starts to drift forward in FWD style, rather than lift, you can just plant the throttle, and the increased transfer of power to the rear overcomes those FWD characteristics, changing it to a predictable and controllable balance. If you want a full on 4 wheel drift, just keep it planted, otherwise don't plant it quite as far, and the back end will just push enough to take the pressure off the front, and get you turning in as you had intended.
Then we get to the cabin space. Yes the Leon has more, and the higher roofline emphasises that airiness to the driver. But if you're anything like me, being 6ft tall, I'm quite happy to have 4 inches of air between my head and the roof lining. Any more is just wasted space that turns the feel of a hot hatch cabin, into that of a small but quick MPV, which definitely detracts from the experience for me.
There isn't much between them. They're very similar, yet differ in so many ways. For me, despite the capability of the Leon, the S3 wins every time. But hey, life would be boring if we all liked the same things.
Styling is also very subjective. What you describe as "more striking exterior styling" of the Leon, I would describe as slightly cheap, almost chav styling, sticking R badges wherever they could )even on the remote key). This seems to be playing more to the stereotypical boy-racer image, especially when compared to the understated class, of the S3's far more subtle aggressiveness. Of course, that's assuming you're buying anything other than the horrible Solar Orange of the one in the article. But having said that, if you can put up with it, the orange paint will get you a year newer, and otherwise identical car for the same money.
Where you say "There's a lack of emotional appeal from behind the wheel of the Audi" you don't say where you think it's lacking. Personally I found the FWD setup of the Leon to be more lacking, because of the typical FWD handling. While I realise that being a Haldex system, the S3 is also mainly FWD for the majority of the time (usually 70:30 front to rear split, not the the "'official' 40:60 front/rear drive set-up" of the Torsen quattro setup in the larger cars in the Audi range, which you seem to have been expecting) once you get used to the characteristics of the system, it's very easy to learn to take advantage of it, and get it to send more power to the back when you want it to, giving far more exciting handling than the Leon, but in a different way.
On getting to a corner, and feeling the front start to drift, and then lifting to stop it drifting straight on with the FWD setup, with the S3, when it starts to drift forward in FWD style, rather than lift, you can just plant the throttle, and the increased transfer of power to the rear overcomes those FWD characteristics, changing it to a predictable and controllable balance. If you want a full on 4 wheel drift, just keep it planted, otherwise don't plant it quite as far, and the back end will just push enough to take the pressure off the front, and get you turning in as you had intended.
Then we get to the cabin space. Yes the Leon has more, and the higher roofline emphasises that airiness to the driver. But if you're anything like me, being 6ft tall, I'm quite happy to have 4 inches of air between my head and the roof lining. Any more is just wasted space that turns the feel of a hot hatch cabin, into that of a small but quick MPV, which definitely detracts from the experience for me.
There isn't much between them. They're very similar, yet differ in so many ways. For me, despite the capability of the Leon, the S3 wins every time. But hey, life would be boring if we all liked the same things.
Edited by mitch78 on Monday 8th February 18:45
GreenArrow said:
No offence intended but this sums up why most VAG sporty cars don't interest me. Who buys a hot hatch to "drive carefully?"
In my case, someone who has an Elise to not drive carefully. 
Actually the Skoda is the wife's car not mine. You have to be very careful to get 45mpg out of it but it is possible, most obviously when stuck in the stupid 50 limit that currently covers half of the M3. More normal motorway driving produces high 30s or very low 40s.
I'm probably alone in this but I'm not sure I'd consider the VRS (or anything else I've driven based on that Golf platform) to be a "hot hatch" anyway. It's quick enough in a straight line and the handling is tidy enough but it's not the sort of car that encourages you to drive it hard. If I was buying a hot hatch for the sake of having fun, it'd be something Fiesta sized not a behemoth like the modern Golf GTi/S3/Leon.
Edited by kambites on Monday 8th February 19:30
kambites said:
In my case, someone who has an Elise to not drive carefully.
Actually the Skoda is the wife's car not mine. You have to be very careful to get 45mpg out of it but it is possible, most obviously when stuck in the stupid 50 limit that currently covers half of the M3. More normal motorway driving produces high 30s or very low 40s.
I'm probably alone in this but I'm not sure I'd consider the VRS (or anything else I've driven based on that Golf platform) to be a "hot hatch" anyway. It's quick enough in a straight line and the handling is tidy enough but it's not the sort of car that encourages you to drive it hard. If I was buying a hot hatch for the sake of having fun, it'd be something Fiesta sized not a behemoth like the modern Golf GTi/S3/Leon.
The S3 has the uprated engine with the larger 'K04' turbo though, so it will deliver its power a little differently and therefore combined with the haldex running gear is not as fuel efficient as the 'regular' TFSI.Actually the Skoda is the wife's car not mine. You have to be very careful to get 45mpg out of it but it is possible, most obviously when stuck in the stupid 50 limit that currently covers half of the M3. More normal motorway driving produces high 30s or very low 40s.
I'm probably alone in this but I'm not sure I'd consider the VRS (or anything else I've driven based on that Golf platform) to be a "hot hatch" anyway. It's quick enough in a straight line and the handling is tidy enough but it's not the sort of car that encourages you to drive it hard. If I was buying a hot hatch for the sake of having fun, it'd be something Fiesta sized not a behemoth like the modern Golf GTi/S3/Leon.
Edited by kambites on Monday 8th February 19:30
Have you driven a mk5 golf GTI edition 30? i'd consider that one of the best of the modern era of hatches.
mitch78 said:
It's strange how personal opinion can vary the outcome of comparisons like this. Provided you're using a specialist, the difference in running costs (fuel and servicing) is so negligible, that it wouldn't sway me either way.
Styling is also very subjective. What you describe as "more striking exterior styling" of the Leon, I would describe as slightly cheap, almost chav styling, sticking R badges wherever they could )even on the remote key). This seems to be playing more to the stereotypical boy-racer image, especially when compared to the understated class, of the S3's far more subtle aggressiveness. Of course, that's assuming you're buying anything other than the horrible Solar Orange of the one in the article. But having said that, if you can put up with it, the orange paint will get you a year newer, and otherwise identical car for the same money.
Where you say "There's a lack of emotional appeal from behind the wheel of the Audi" you don't say where you think it's lacking. Personally I found the FWD setup of the Leon to be more lacking, because of the typical FWD handling. While I realise that being a Haldex system, the S3 is also mainly FWD for the majority of the time (usually 70:30 front to rear split, not the the "'official' 40:60 front/rear drive set-up" of the Torsen quattro setup in the larger cars in the Audi range, which you seem to have been expecting) once you get used to the characteristics of the system, it's very easy to learn to take advantage of it, and get it to send more power to the back when you want it to, giving far more exciting handling than the Leon, but in a different way.
On getting to a corner, and feeling the front start to drift, and then lifting to stop it drifting straight on with the FWD setup, with the S3, when it starts to drift forward in FWD style, rather than lift, you can just plant the throttle, and the increased transfer of power to the rear overcomes those FWD characteristics, changing it to a predictable and controllable balance. If you want a full on 4 wheel drift, just keep it planted, otherwise don't plant it quite as far, and the back end will just push enough to take the pressure off the front, and get you turning in as you had intended.
Then we get to the cabin space. Yes the Leon has more, and the higher roofline emphasises that airiness to the driver. But if you're anything like me, being 6ft tall, I'm quite happy to have 4 inches of air between my head and the roof lining. Any more is just wasted space that turns the feel of a hot hatch cabin, into that of a small but quick MPV, which definitely detracts from the experience for me.
There isn't much between them. They're very similar, yet differ in so many ways. For me, despite the capability of the Leon, the S3 wins every time. But hey, life would be boring if we all liked the same things.
Life would be boring if we liked the same things but maybe our S3 has been broken from new as it certainly doesn't drive like that. It can hustle and you can get the back end to step out with severe provocation, but it feels quite numb and soft to drive, it feels like it lacks precision. On fast corners, it will tend to start to run wide if you keep pushing, the Cupra tightens its line and feels a lot more precise, it's a totally different feel and a hoot to drive. Parked up next to the Audi it neither looks nor feels "chavvy" and it's not covered in badges compared to the S3 Styling is also very subjective. What you describe as "more striking exterior styling" of the Leon, I would describe as slightly cheap, almost chav styling, sticking R badges wherever they could )even on the remote key). This seems to be playing more to the stereotypical boy-racer image, especially when compared to the understated class, of the S3's far more subtle aggressiveness. Of course, that's assuming you're buying anything other than the horrible Solar Orange of the one in the article. But having said that, if you can put up with it, the orange paint will get you a year newer, and otherwise identical car for the same money.
Where you say "There's a lack of emotional appeal from behind the wheel of the Audi" you don't say where you think it's lacking. Personally I found the FWD setup of the Leon to be more lacking, because of the typical FWD handling. While I realise that being a Haldex system, the S3 is also mainly FWD for the majority of the time (usually 70:30 front to rear split, not the the "'official' 40:60 front/rear drive set-up" of the Torsen quattro setup in the larger cars in the Audi range, which you seem to have been expecting) once you get used to the characteristics of the system, it's very easy to learn to take advantage of it, and get it to send more power to the back when you want it to, giving far more exciting handling than the Leon, but in a different way.
On getting to a corner, and feeling the front start to drift, and then lifting to stop it drifting straight on with the FWD setup, with the S3, when it starts to drift forward in FWD style, rather than lift, you can just plant the throttle, and the increased transfer of power to the rear overcomes those FWD characteristics, changing it to a predictable and controllable balance. If you want a full on 4 wheel drift, just keep it planted, otherwise don't plant it quite as far, and the back end will just push enough to take the pressure off the front, and get you turning in as you had intended.
Then we get to the cabin space. Yes the Leon has more, and the higher roofline emphasises that airiness to the driver. But if you're anything like me, being 6ft tall, I'm quite happy to have 4 inches of air between my head and the roof lining. Any more is just wasted space that turns the feel of a hot hatch cabin, into that of a small but quick MPV, which definitely detracts from the experience for me.
There isn't much between them. They're very similar, yet differ in so many ways. For me, despite the capability of the Leon, the S3 wins every time. But hey, life would be boring if we all liked the same things.
Edited by mitch78 on Monday 8th February 18:45
kambites said:
In my case, someone who has an Elise to not drive carefully.
Actually the Skoda is the wife's car not mine. You have to be very careful to get 45mpg out of it but it is possible, most obviously when stuck in the stupid 50 limit that currently covers half of the M3. More normal motorway driving produces high 30s or very low 40s.
I'm probably alone in this but I'm not sure I'd consider the VRS (or anything else I've driven based on that Golf platform) to be a "hot hatch" anyway. It's quick enough in a straight line and the handling is tidy enough but it's not the sort of car that encourages you to drive it hard. If I was buying a hot hatch for the sake of having fun, it'd be something Fiesta sized not a behemoth like the modern Golf GTi/S3/Leon.
Some people also want to have a single car that can both be quick and a bit of fun, yet be sensible enough to travel a couple of hundred miles to work meetings on regular occasions. Not everyone has the money for two cars, or somewhere to park two cars etc.Actually the Skoda is the wife's car not mine. You have to be very careful to get 45mpg out of it but it is possible, most obviously when stuck in the stupid 50 limit that currently covers half of the M3. More normal motorway driving produces high 30s or very low 40s.
I'm probably alone in this but I'm not sure I'd consider the VRS (or anything else I've driven based on that Golf platform) to be a "hot hatch" anyway. It's quick enough in a straight line and the handling is tidy enough but it's not the sort of car that encourages you to drive it hard. If I was buying a hot hatch for the sake of having fun, it'd be something Fiesta sized not a behemoth like the modern Golf GTi/S3/Leon.
Edited by kambites on Monday 8th February 19:30
Personally I have the other one in this range, a mk7 Golf R. In my case the golf won partly for dull practical reasons: there was more leg room in the back. And it was a nicer place to sit than the others. OK, so it's not great on fuel economy, but it's not daft either. I did drive the other two when I was looking. The SEAT was more fun than the Audi but it's hard to judge on a test drive, especially as I got to drive the SEAT on faster roads. I don't think there's much between all three. It's all down to which you prefer to look at or sit in. Not very PH, but they are roughly the same car after all.
For a practical car that will carry the family and go fast, you can't really go wrong with any of these. If you want a driver's car and don't need the practicality, then you're looking in the wrong place.
mitch78 said:
It's strange how personal opinion can vary the outcome of comparisons like this. Provided you're using a specialist, the difference in running costs (fuel and servicing) is so negligible, that it wouldn't sway me either way.
Styling is also very subjective. What you describe as "more striking exterior styling" of the Leon, I would describe as slightly cheap, almost chav styling, sticking R badges wherever they could )even on the remote key). This seems to be playing more to the stereotypical boy-racer image, especially when compared to the understated class, of the S3's far more subtle aggressiveness. Of course, that's assuming you're buying anything other than the horrible Solar Orange of the one in the article. But having said that, if you can put up with it, the orange paint will get you a year newer, and otherwise identical car for the same money.
Where you say "There's a lack of emotional appeal from behind the wheel of the Audi" you don't say where you think it's lacking. Personally I found the FWD setup of the Leon to be more lacking, because of the typical FWD handling. While I realise that being a Haldex system, the S3 is also mainly FWD for the majority of the time (usually 70:30 front to rear split, not the the "'official' 40:60 front/rear drive set-up" of the Torsen quattro setup in the larger cars in the Audi range, which you seem to have been expecting) once you get used to the characteristics of the system, it's very easy to learn to take advantage of it, and get it to send more power to the back when you want it to, giving far more exciting handling than the Leon, but in a different way.
On getting to a corner, and feeling the front start to drift, and then lifting to stop it drifting straight on with the FWD setup, with the S3, when it starts to drift forward in FWD style, rather than lift, you can just plant the throttle, and the increased transfer of power to the rear overcomes those FWD characteristics, changing it to a predictable and controllable balance. If you want a full on 4 wheel drift, just keep it planted, otherwise don't plant it quite as far, and the back end will just push enough to take the pressure off the front, and get you turning in as you had intended.
Then we get to the cabin space. Yes the Leon has more, and the higher roofline emphasises that airiness to the driver. But if you're anything like me, being 6ft tall, I'm quite happy to have 4 inches of air between my head and the roof lining. Any more is just wasted space that turns the feel of a hot hatch cabin, into that of a small but quick MPV, which definitely detracts from the experience for me.
There isn't much between them. They're very similar, yet differ in so many ways. For me, despite the capability of the Leon, the S3 wins every time. But hey, life would be boring if we all liked the same things.
Life would be boring if we liked the same things but maybe our S3 has been broken from new as it certainly doesn't drive like that. It can hustle and you can get the back end to step out with severe provocation, but it feels quite numb and soft to drive, it feels like it lacks precision. On fast corners, it will tend to start to run wide if you keep pushing, the Cupra tightens its line and feels a lot more precise, it's a totally different feel and a hoot to drive. Parked up next to the Audi it neither looks nor feels "chavvy" and it's not covered in badges compared to the S3 Styling is also very subjective. What you describe as "more striking exterior styling" of the Leon, I would describe as slightly cheap, almost chav styling, sticking R badges wherever they could )even on the remote key). This seems to be playing more to the stereotypical boy-racer image, especially when compared to the understated class, of the S3's far more subtle aggressiveness. Of course, that's assuming you're buying anything other than the horrible Solar Orange of the one in the article. But having said that, if you can put up with it, the orange paint will get you a year newer, and otherwise identical car for the same money.
Where you say "There's a lack of emotional appeal from behind the wheel of the Audi" you don't say where you think it's lacking. Personally I found the FWD setup of the Leon to be more lacking, because of the typical FWD handling. While I realise that being a Haldex system, the S3 is also mainly FWD for the majority of the time (usually 70:30 front to rear split, not the the "'official' 40:60 front/rear drive set-up" of the Torsen quattro setup in the larger cars in the Audi range, which you seem to have been expecting) once you get used to the characteristics of the system, it's very easy to learn to take advantage of it, and get it to send more power to the back when you want it to, giving far more exciting handling than the Leon, but in a different way.
On getting to a corner, and feeling the front start to drift, and then lifting to stop it drifting straight on with the FWD setup, with the S3, when it starts to drift forward in FWD style, rather than lift, you can just plant the throttle, and the increased transfer of power to the rear overcomes those FWD characteristics, changing it to a predictable and controllable balance. If you want a full on 4 wheel drift, just keep it planted, otherwise don't plant it quite as far, and the back end will just push enough to take the pressure off the front, and get you turning in as you had intended.
Then we get to the cabin space. Yes the Leon has more, and the higher roofline emphasises that airiness to the driver. But if you're anything like me, being 6ft tall, I'm quite happy to have 4 inches of air between my head and the roof lining. Any more is just wasted space that turns the feel of a hot hatch cabin, into that of a small but quick MPV, which definitely detracts from the experience for me.
There isn't much between them. They're very similar, yet differ in so many ways. For me, despite the capability of the Leon, the S3 wins every time. But hey, life would be boring if we all liked the same things.
Edited by mitch78 on Monday 8th February 18:45
Mr Tidy said:
Kitchski said:
article said:
Premium is the new mainstream, even in the hot hatch sector. A new generation of image-conscious drivers mean the days hot hatch buyers cared only about their car's dynamics are long gone.
And that's why I don't give a f
k about either of these cars!
pppppppppppppppp said:
Some people also want to have a single car that can both be quick and a bit of fun, yet be sensible enough to travel a couple of hundred miles to work meetings on regular occasions.
Indeed, and for some people these giant hot hatches will provide that. For me they just don't, I find them extremely capable and exceptionally dull to drive (which is exactly what we wanted in a family car). I'm not saying they shouldn't exist or that they're bad cars, or even that I don't like them; just that for me they don't provide what I view as one of the defining features of a hot hatch - the ability to entertain at low speed. jamoy said:
The S3 has the uprated engine with the larger 'K04' turbo though, so it will deliver its power a little differently and therefore combined with the haldex running gear is not as fuel efficient as the 'regular' TFSI.
Have you driven a mk5 golf GTI edition 30? i'd consider that one of the best of the modern era of hatches.
Out of interest, why would the larger turbo make them less economical? Is it just because of the greater restriction in the exhaust causes poorer combustion? I know the extra weight of the Haldex is going to make economy slightly worse but the difference on a constant speed cruise isn't huge; the other thing which may differ which can make a huge difference is gear ratios and I suspect the Skoda probably has better aerodynamics? Have you driven a mk5 golf GTI edition 30? i'd consider that one of the best of the modern era of hatches.
And no I haven't driven an Edition 30.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 9th February 07:55
Leon all day for me as a current 1P FR owner.
I have the BTCC kit and 18's and I think it looks the nuts. As a pre facelift example (2008) I have to agree the centre console is dreadful but the later ones with multimedia sytem are a lot better.
Steering not great though and the ride can be crashy.
Audis just far too common for me. And far too expensive when new.
I have the BTCC kit and 18's and I think it looks the nuts. As a pre facelift example (2008) I have to agree the centre console is dreadful but the later ones with multimedia sytem are a lot better.
Steering not great though and the ride can be crashy.
Audis just far too common for me. And far too expensive when new.
macky17 said:
Mr Tidy said:
Kitchski said:
article said:
Premium is the new mainstream, even in the hot hatch sector. A new generation of image-conscious drivers mean the days hot hatch buyers cared only about their car's dynamics are long gone.
And that's why I don't give a fk about either of these cars!Another example would be you saying "And yet you both felt the need to tell us all..."
Kitchski said:
macky17 said:
Mr Tidy said:
Kitchski said:
article said:
Premium is the new mainstream, even in the hot hatch sector. A new generation of image-conscious drivers mean the days hot hatch buyers cared only about their car's dynamics are long gone.
And that's why I don't give a fk about either of these cars!Another example would be you saying "And yet you both felt the need to tell us all..."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profound
Edited by macky17 on Tuesday 9th February 09:57
macky17 said:
Kitchski said:
macky17 said:
Mr Tidy said:
Kitchski said:
article said:
Premium is the new mainstream, even in the hot hatch sector. A new generation of image-conscious drivers mean the days hot hatch buyers cared only about their car's dynamics are long gone.
And that's why I don't give a fk about either of these cars!Another example would be you saying "And yet you both felt the need to tell us all..."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profound
Edited by macky17 on Tuesday 9th February 09:57
S3 wins for me easily. Don't like the looks of the LCR but that's subjective (not a major fan of S3 either tbf).
Having had 300BHP VXR (with added LSD, RARB and decent springs) and 310BHP Golf Edition 30 (both front wheel drive), you're deluded if you think FWD can handle decent power even in the dry even with trick LSDs. First and second gear just spin like crazy even in the dry, and coming out of corners you can't push on properly. If it's wet or cold? Well you might as well start in 3rd gear... you're going nowhere. Had both cars standard for a while too and the lower BHP didn't improve grip either.
I'd take the S3 with AWD anytime to ensure the power you have is put to the tarmac, even if it feels slightly dull and isn't "true" AWD. In the UK it's raining, damp or cold 70% of the time.
I don't do great mileage so I have a proper AWD EVO IX now and would never look back at FWD cars, but if I needed to commute more (could only have one car) and the EVO had to go... I'd take an S3 out of these two.
Having had 300BHP VXR (with added LSD, RARB and decent springs) and 310BHP Golf Edition 30 (both front wheel drive), you're deluded if you think FWD can handle decent power even in the dry even with trick LSDs. First and second gear just spin like crazy even in the dry, and coming out of corners you can't push on properly. If it's wet or cold? Well you might as well start in 3rd gear... you're going nowhere. Had both cars standard for a while too and the lower BHP didn't improve grip either.
I'd take the S3 with AWD anytime to ensure the power you have is put to the tarmac, even if it feels slightly dull and isn't "true" AWD. In the UK it's raining, damp or cold 70% of the time.
I don't do great mileage so I have a proper AWD EVO IX now and would never look back at FWD cars, but if I needed to commute more (could only have one car) and the EVO had to go... I'd take an S3 out of these two.
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