Am I the only one that doesn't get interest in hot hatches?
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I share a large amount of my DNA with my brother, that doesn't make me him 
It is an opinion. I don't think that the Octavia is a Golf. There may well share a platform and a large number of components, but that does not make them the same car. I drove a Seat Leon Cupra, which again shares the same platform as a Golf, and a Golf GTi Turbo and they did not feel like the same car, despite a large number of shared components. I also drove a Bora with with exactly the same 180 bhp engine and box as the Cupra, again it didn't feel like the same car. The steering for one thing was a lot better.
Edited by Devil2575 on Friday 12th February 15:18
LewisR said:
Devil2575 said:
Unless you drive something that is insanely noisy or "look at me" shouty then the only things that I can imagine that makes people feel special are a car that is expensive so lets other people know how well off you are or a car that you have always wanted so every time you're in it you remember that you finally own one.
You present a false dichotomy here. A car can make you feel good because of the interior quality, ride comfort and low noise levels. These do not have to be apparent from the outside, nor make some statement on one's wealth. Older luxury cars can be had for a song.Example -
Anytime I drive a Mk2 MR2, it always feels *really* special because of how the dash is designed, along with the high transmission tunnel, and stubby gear stick.
Such cars just engender an almost unquantifiable goodfeelingness that has bugger all to do with value or outward perception.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I have no idea, I've never driven an electric car. I'd imagine that a Focus ST feels more like a Golf GTI than an electric Golf, the drive train being significantly different.I still don't agree, and it's not just about branding. I know that under the skin there is significant component sharing amongs many cars, not just those in the VAG. To me that doesn't make them the same car. Things like what it looks like, exactly how the suspension is set up, the steering, what the seats are like etc are all part of what makes a car a car. These things are all difererent in a Golf, Leon and an Octavia. Just because they share a platform, engines and gearboxes doesn't make them all the same car IMHO.
While looking for a car a good few years back I test drove a number of cars that by your criteria are all the same car. A3 1.8T, Leon Cupra, Golf GTTi, Bora 1.8T. They all felt different and I came away with a completely different impression of each car. I would have bought an A3 1.8T or a leon Cupra, I would not have bought a Golf GTTi or a Bora 1.8T. Yes the engine was the same, aside from a 30bhp deficit in the Golf and A3, as was the gearbox, but the ride, handling and Steering feel were quite different. Looks and interior quality were also different.
Pick up a copy of EVO and see how these supposedly same cars get different ratings. The Original VRS got a higher rating than the car that according to you it is the same as. How can this be the case if it is just a branding exercise?
TheJimi said:
LewisR said:
Devil2575 said:
Unless you drive something that is insanely noisy or "look at me" shouty then the only things that I can imagine that makes people feel special are a car that is expensive so lets other people know how well off you are or a car that you have always wanted so every time you're in it you remember that you finally own one.
You present a false dichotomy here. A car can make you feel good because of the interior quality, ride comfort and low noise levels. These do not have to be apparent from the outside, nor make some statement on one's wealth. Older luxury cars can be had for a song.Example -
Anytime I drive a Mk2 MR2, it always feels *really* special because of how the dash is designed, along with the high transmission tunnel, and stubby gear stick.
Such cars just engender an almost unquantifiable goodfeelingness that has bugger all to do with value or outward perception.
Patrick Bateman said:
That's great but where do you put your shopping?
Front and rear boots, it'll take s
t loads. Bloody good packaging, the old 986. Two good size boots front and rear, which means all of your luggage or shopping is firmly locked away and none if it is in the cabin with you. Still has room for an electric soft-top to drop down, and has a 14 gallon fuel tank and a spare wheel (though probably nowhere to put the punctured wheel
).anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yep, absolutely...they're from the same platform, just tuned for different customer tastes, the Seat a little bit sportier, the Golf a little bit softer....they all understeer on the limit!...
where did we get to on our "cant see the point of hot hatches" debate?
Ive had a couple of hot hatches and they have been the most fun cars I've owned and I've had a few sports car and just purchased a porsche cayman for £15000 which i think looks great and handles amazing but doesn't inspire the grin handling factor of my old clio 172 and my minis. To be honest the Clio actually cost me a fortune to run but i drove it really hard but the porsche i will probably look after better as it feels a bit more special. what you should do is buy a second hand sports car and second hand hot hatch and you would have the best of both worlds. Oh and had a couple of Vauxhall VX220S they are unreliable and not as fun as a hot hatch.
This is just my opinion though
This is just my opinion though
Devil2575 said:
GreenArrow said:
Yep, absolutely...they're from the same platform, just tuned for different customer tastes, the Seat a little bit sportier, the Golf a little bit softer....they all understeer on the limit
Isn't part of what makes a car how it's tuned? Oh and how it looks...Its not necessarily a bad thing, they're competent enough cars, but I do find all the VAG cars very generic.
Anyway, back to an earlier point a few pages back made by the learned Cmoose about modern FWD cars being so tall, I remember driving my wife's Fiesta ST over Christmas after mainly driving my MX-5 for a few weeks. I Couldn't get over how much higher up it felt, was like driving sat on a bar stool by comparison! I guess its why most modern hot hatches have such stiff suspension, to limit the body movement. Its a shame, as the older ones like the early Mk2 Golfs and 205s/Clio Williams etc were actually quite soft in the suspension department really, which greatly aided their back road pace...
Devil2575 said:
TheJimi said:
LewisR said:
Devil2575 said:
Unless you drive something that is insanely noisy or "look at me" shouty then the only things that I can imagine that makes people feel special are a car that is expensive so lets other people know how well off you are or a car that you have always wanted so every time you're in it you remember that you finally own one.
You present a false dichotomy here. A car can make you feel good because of the interior quality, ride comfort and low noise levels. These do not have to be apparent from the outside, nor make some statement on one's wealth. Older luxury cars can be had for a song.Example -
Anytime I drive a Mk2 MR2, it always feels *really* special because of how the dash is designed, along with the high transmission tunnel, and stubby gear stick.
Such cars just engender an almost unquantifiable goodfeelingness that has bugger all to do with value or outward perception.
For me it's not really about the shape of the car , it's about how the car drives . The hatchback is of course very popular but back in the day it was more about the performance saloon , is the saloon car much different to the hatchback ? Not really its just easier to load with stuff like a van is . Hot hatch , hot saloon car all the same really and most big car manufactures offer these choices to the paying customer , would a s3 hatch drive different to a s3 saloon I don't think so.
LewisR said:
In my case, those that aren't really interested in cars (like my mum) see the M5 as an old BMW. That's about it. I like that to most people, it's just an old BMW. Only fellow enthusiasts know what it is and will hopefully understand why you put up with sub-20 mpg on most journeys. As for hot hatches... clearly I'd rather have a hot executive saloon as I think the end product is so much more rewarding with regards to performance and overall sense of occasion.
Oh do dream on. Performance? Where are you going to use 400bhp, apart from bragging rights in forums or bars? Sense of occasion? It's a family car for heaven sake. A mental one yes, but do keep a sense of perspective, and you denounced the hot hatch for being similar, remember?.I have noticed that in the criticisms of hot hatches, I don't think anyone has mentioned how they drive*. It seems "enthusiasts" would rather talk about spec than driving. It seems bragging/nerdnes comes well before driving.
- ETA Sorry, apart from those who still don't realise that HH's are more inclined to oversteer than understeer.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 13th February 06:18
GreenArrow said:
Indeed it is, but the point of debate appeared to be that Seat Leons/Skoda Octavias and VW Golfs were very different cars...
I didn't say they were very different at all. I said they were not the same car.This started because I said that a Mondeo Hatch and a Mondeo saloon are the same car but an E46 Saloon and an E46 Compact are not. By the same token a Leon is not a Golf.
I didn't mention that I thought they were very different, just that they are not the same car.
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