Am I the only one that doesn't get interest in hot hatches?

Am I the only one that doesn't get interest in hot hatches?

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Discussion

Hudson

1,857 posts

186 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Joratk said:
I think a better analogy for hot hatches is "jack of all trades, master of none." - if you want driving enjoyment get a purpose built sports car, if you want to cart the kids and the shopping around get a saloon, or a regular hatch back for £10k less than the one with nicer alloys and 20bhp more. It's all just a marketing gimmick!
The most powerful non-ST MK2 Focus i can see on Parkers is 142bhp, the ST is 225bhp standard, so it's a bit more than 20bhp in a lot of cases.

Let me put it this way. Imagine you are a petrolhead, but only have room for one car. You need to chuck the shopping in it and occasionally the girlfriend/wife/kids. Do you:

A- get a hot hatch to get all of the benefits of a practical hatchback with the extra performance for when you are out on your own and fancy a hoon
B- get a base model hatchback, safe in the knowledge that you could get a second hand M3 for that sort of money
Bonus PH answer - sack the wife and kids off and get a Caterham

If i had the room for two cars, i'd drive something like an automatic GS300 to work and that used E46 M3 on weekends wink

loose cannon

6,029 posts

240 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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TameRacingDriver said:
If that was aimed at me, my old FN2 has about the same fuel economy, road tax, insurance, and servicing costs as my 3.0 Z4 Coupe.

Hot hatches ceased becoming cheap to run when they all started weighing as much as a tank, and needing much more powerful engines, bigger tyres and brakes etc etc. Unless you're talking about something like a Swift Sport, but then that's more what I would call a hot hatch from the old school. Most of the modern stuff is just nothing like that any more.
No it wasn't but whilst your there my 3.0 bmw costs much more to fuel than my Megane perhaps the age of the car makes a difference but then having said that my old gte 16v was great on fuel and that was decades ago
To be fair my old m3 wasn't to bad on fuel but everything else on it wasn't cheap in its day compared to a hatch

Edited by loose cannon on Tuesday 9th February 17:06

WJNB

2,637 posts

160 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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From the days of the first 'hot hatch' they bored me, just little boxes with silly wheels & add-on bits, making too much noise & owned by a demographic that I have nothing in common with.

irocfan

40,153 posts

189 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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I guess if I'm being totally fair about it though the whole HH idea is a straight-forward steal from the muscle-car and pony-car scene in the US. Take a smaller bodyshell and stuff in the biggest engine you can wink

TurboHatchback

4,151 posts

152 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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The new vs used argument is a whole separate issue, it's meaningless unless you compare like with like.

Looking at the used market hot hatches often represent superb performance value for money all things considered (purchase price and real running costs). If you have £2500 to spend and need a car that is fast, reliable, has four seats, does 35mpg average and is cheap to maintain then a Renaultsport Clio or Civic type-R provides unbeatable performance and fun. Yes that budget could buy you a V8 barge but it will be expensive to run and maintain, it could buy you a little roadster but they are extremely impractical and often slower or it could buy you a bargain basement Boxster but that won't be any faster and will likely end in tears.

In the new market the story is fairly similar if you look at small hot hatches. What other car for £17k new can match the performance, practicality and fun factor of a Fiesta ST? To get something more dedicated with vaguely comparable performance the closest I can think of is the new MX5 2.0 but that starts at over £20k.

I don't own a hot hatch and nowadays prefer to have several cars each with more focused roles but hot hatches satisfy most requirements for most people at a very competitive budget.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Joratk said:
I think a better analogy for hot hatches is "jack of all trades, master of none." - if you want driving enjoyment get a purpose built sports car, if you want to cart the kids and the shopping around get a saloon, or a regular hatch back for £10k less than the one with nicer alloys and 20bhp more. It's all just a marketing gimmick!
How many hot hatches have only 20 bhp more than a lesser version in the range that is £10k less?


loose cannon

6,029 posts

240 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Lol ok then mods close the thread it's futile laugh

Alex_225

6,234 posts

200 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Don't forget affordable performance is another benefit of a hot hatch.

If it's based on a normal model, a fair percentage of parts will be the same so it will have relatively normal running costs.

If you look at the CLS63 I bought last year, it may have costs me maybe £5k more than the Megane 225 I bought new back in 2006 but I couldn't have afforded to run an AMG when I was 23. The Megane was/is far more affordable.

egor110

16,818 posts

202 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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WJNB said:
From the days of the first 'hot hatch' they bored me, just little boxes with silly wheels & add-on bits, making too much noise & owned by a demographic that I have nothing in common with.
I've got a 172 cup which as stock has 16'' alloys so a inch bigger than stock.

Add on bits I can only talk for the cup but instead of add on they took weight out and increased the track of the car so it handles even better.

loose cannon

6,029 posts

240 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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The problem with this thread is that it hasn't really discussed why a hot hatch represents bang for buck and good all rounder which is the point of a hot hatch, it has just descended into a my car is better than yours type jobbi/ class war I wouldn't be seen dead etc
But as Alex has pointed out far better than me they are cheap to run for the performance you get you don't have to like them but that is the point of them

stephen300o

15,464 posts

227 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Nope, of course not. Hot hatch's roots are just those cars made cheaply, by having fwd in a tidy parcel stuck in the front.
The embarrassing cousin of the mature rwd drivers car.

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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loose cannon said:
The problem with this thread is that it hasn't really discussed why a hot hatch represents bang for buck and good all rounder which is the point of a hot hatch, it has just descended into a my car is better than yours type jobbi/ class war I wouldn't be seen dead etc
But as Alex has pointed out far better than me they are cheap to run for the performance you get you don't have to like them but that is the point of them
Of course it has! It's Pistonheads.

If I lost my job and had to sell my Scirocco to free up a few months worth of money then I would have only one car to replace it with..

Clio 182 Cup
For a grand you upgrade the brakes, fit some Recaros and harnesses and away you go.
Friend of mine had one and it was really nice, felt a lot bigger in terms of driver and passenger space than it lets on. Sit a bit high though, but buckets would fix that


loose cannon

6,029 posts

240 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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stephen300o said:
Nope, of course not. Hot hatch's roots are just those cars made cheaply, by having fwd in a tidy parcel stuck in the front.
The embarrassing cousin of the mature rwd drivers car.
perhaps whilst one owns a nice old classic rwd one could enjoy a hot hatch also to maybe or are you a bit long in the tooth to handle the excitement tongue out

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Never really understood the love of hot hatches either, but it is horses for courses.

docter fox

593 posts

234 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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I have a 3.0 Z4 in the garage and I'm looking to buy a hot hatch as my daily... Why? Because I'm bored with a diesel focus and want a bit more fun more of the time but don't want to run the Z4 every day...

Edit to add - no kids, dogs or friends to cart about frequently

Edited by docter fox on Tuesday 9th February 19:23

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Devil2575 said:
irocfan said:
Devil2575 said:
Even if we ignore the obvious issue of practicallity etc, you're talking about price point to buy.

Yes for £30k you can get a Golf GTI or a used Porsche. Do you think the two cars have comparable running costs?
no - taken over the course of many years a 911 may well end up being cheaper than a GTi
Do you think so?

Based on what? The low price of Porsche spare parts? The supreme reliability of Porsche compared to other brands?

A new GTI is going to be in warranty to start with whereas a used Porsche for 30k may well not be. Don't Porsche only offer a 2 year warranty as well?

It's also not like they are depreciation proof either and that the GTI is worthless after 10 years.

I think the old "My expensive sports car is cheaper to run than your family hatchback" line is a perfect example of man maths and only exists in people's heads.

I'm sure it's possible to spend less on a 911 than a GTI over the long term but I'd be prepared to place a wager that it isn't the norm.
Someone has been living under a rock biggrin

Porsche and reliability is a bit of a joke IMO.

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Joratk said:
It's not badge snobbery. You're getting caught up on the examples I used. Replace TT with GT86, does that work better?

My argument is there are simply more enjoyable cars for the crazy money hot hatches now cost - look at the A45 AMG for example! wobble

People are always trying to make their hot hatches sound more appealing than they actually are, like they're some sort of salesman/advocate for hot hatches, when in reality they are just flat out not as special as lots of other sports coupes etc at the exact same price point - used or new!

I like the "trying to impress" analogy - only I don't believe the car is trying to impress the driver, more so trying to impress every around it because of its inherent inadequacy in trying to be something it's not.

I think a better analogy for hot hatches is "jack of all trades, master of none." - if you want driving enjoyment get a purpose built sports car, if you want to cart the kids and the shopping around get a saloon, or a regular hatch back for £10k less than the one with nicer alloys and 20bhp more. It's all just a marketing gimmick!
I half agree with you but say for a nominal budget of 30k, I could just about get into my dream real-world car, an Aston Martin V8 Vantage. Yes, it will likely be 8/9 years old but certainly I have more want for one than a new Golf R. However, will it take me and my family of four and their luggage on holiday, do 40mpg on my commute, cost peanuts to run and would I be happy leaving it in a narrow backstreet/multi-storey car park/station car park? The answer to all of these questions is no. Yes, I could split the budget on two cars, a more mundane family/day-to-day car and a more dedicated sports car but how often would I get to use the sports car and how much fun would I have in the daily diesel hatch that I'm driving most of the time?

Also, what we're ignoring is how many people buy a new hot hatch with cash? Where are all the cheap 0% finance/lease deals on 5 year old Cayman Ss? When you're financing your used Porsche at 6% vs. your new hot hatch at 0%, the price differential i.e. payment difference gets a lot bigger and you'll likely have higher maintenance costs on the older car too.

For what it's worth, I love the smaller, lighter hot hatches of the 80s/90s, as they were fantastic fun and cheap to buy and run too. The newer Golf-sized hatches are great all-rounders but have traded involvement and fun for speed and grip in my opinion. The smaller, lighter hot hatches like the Fiesta ST are where it's at if you ask me. Like someone else said, what else for 17k new offers as much fun? If 17k is too much for a Fiesta, buy a used one. If you want something fairly quick, economical, light and practical with 4 useable seats, what other type of car is there? A 3-Series I suppose but it is a bigger car, the current engine options aren't that exciting and not everyone values RWD and/or wants a BMW.


Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 10th February 16:02

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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Joratk said:
I think a better analogy for hot hatches is "jack of all trades, master of none." - if you want driving enjoyment get a purpose built sports car, if you want to cart the kids and the shopping around get a saloon, or a regular hatch back for £10k less than the one with nicer alloys and 20bhp more. It's all just a marketing gimmick!
You're a 100% wrong on the marketing gimmick thing - ye gods, do you think that possibly millions of enthusiasts all over Europe since the late seventies have got it wrong? Of course they haven't, but you have.

If you want driving enjoyment and you need to to cart kids and shipping around then get a hot hatch, 'cos it'll do a bloody good job of doing all of that.

I'm probably with you on the issue of £30k awd cars, but for me they're not hot hatches. For me a hot hatch should be front wheel drive and probably French 'cos they build the one that are most fun imo. And that's what they can be, bloody good fun!

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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xjay1337 said:
RobM77 said:
xjay1337 said:
framerateuk said:
Joratk said:
It applies to all hot hatches really - they are basically just the same as their less sporty counterpart, a Fiesta ST is still just a Ford Fiesta, a Leon Cupra is still just a Seat Leon. Go get a TT or something...
Also, this just makes you sound like a total badge snob. Enjoy your TT rolleyes
Lol
I wonder if he knows a Seat Leon is an Audi TT under neath.
TT hardly being the pinnacle of driving pleasure either.
That's rather mean, considering that he's correct! I don't understand the badge snobbery comments at all; any hot hatch version of a hatch is that same hatchback with different suspension and engine output. The underlying hatchback would have been designed mainly for economical and safe transport. This is in contrast to a purpose built sports car, which will have had a different design brief from the word go. Acknowelding that isn't badge snobbery, it's engineering awareness. Platform sharing is quite different, where the commonality between two cars is much further up the family tree.
BMW M3, arguably the rest RWD saloon, is based on a 3 series.
Fiesta ST, is a wonderful car, based on a normal fiesta...

Aside from a purpose built sports car, being what... like a Caterham?
yes Yes to all three. That's exactly my point: nothing's saying that a modified standard car like the M3 can't drive better than a purpose built sports car (for example, I prefer the E46 M3 to the S2000 and I prefer a 106GTi to an S2000 too, or maybe even an MX5). However, the potential is better with a purpose built sports car's underpinnings, because it doesn't have the practicality and compromises built in like the modified saloon or hatch does, which are primarily built to take Joe Bloggs to work and back via Tesco. The 3 series is slightly different to the Fiesta example in that it has the same basic layout of a sports car to start with (done at cost to BMW for their run of the mill models, which they're slowly starting to realise with the introduction of FWD from the bottom up).

xjay1337 said:
Especially when the OP in this case suggested an Audi TT be a sports car. When the original Mk1 TT was half Golf Mk4, arguably the worst handling Golf, and the Mk2 is based on the Golf..Leon...Octavia... etc. :-)

I fully understand the TT would be better to drive than the Seat Leon but only because of chassis stiffness. They all come with the same engines aside from the TTRS which again let's face it, is lovely but hardly a thoroughbred.
I don't know much about the TT, but I suspect it's a bit more than a VW or Skoda in a skirt. That said, I agree that it was a bad choice as an example because yes, it is quite close to those cars and it has the platform of a shopping car, not a sports car biggrin

nickfrog

20,872 posts

216 months

Tuesday 9th February 2016
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RobM77 said:
Essentially this boils down to FWD vs RWD. I'm sure we'd all rather drive a FWD or 4WD hot hatch than a longer wheelbase (and therefore duller) saloon or estate with the same drivetrain, I know I would at least. Ergo I see hot hatches as the pinnacle of FWD and 4WD fun. The only thing that's going to tempt you away is RWD, which is why I think this question boils down to FWD/4WD vs RWD, which is of course totally subjective.
It would be great if you could buy a RWD hatch with a longitudinal 325hp 6-pot engine mostly behind the front axle, Brembo 4-pots, sensibly sized wheels with Supersports, great spec including nav, leather, led lights etc etc, all this for £25k. Dream on though.