Expensive vs cheap oil
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Forte products: You asked about Forte products in another thread. I have no opinion on that but let me tell you of our experience when the Forte sales man came to see us. He brings a device which IIRC is essentially a small machined steel drum which spins in a small bath/container. Powered by electric motor. It then has a lever which you use to press a machined steel dowel onto the drum (I'll see if I can find pics). The idea is that dowel and drum rotate together and pressure is applied to the dowel via the lever.
When the little bath is filled with Forte engine flush and dowel is levered onto spinning drum you cannot stop the dowel rotating. Replace forte with any other engine flush and the the dowel seizes and a flat is quickly worn. Quite impressive.
Then we did the same with the oil we were supplying at the time (Fuchs). The lubrication was such that the dowel continues to turn, but when we replaced the Fuchs with super market oil of *exactly* the same spec - it seized. I saw it with my own eyes.
An unscientific test but better than nothing at all I'd suggest.
Not only unscientific but also completely misleading crap - next time they come ask them if you can try some shampoo in it.When the little bath is filled with Forte engine flush and dowel is levered onto spinning drum you cannot stop the dowel rotating. Replace forte with any other engine flush and the the dowel seizes and a flat is quickly worn. Quite impressive.
Then we did the same with the oil we were supplying at the time (Fuchs). The lubrication was such that the dowel continues to turn, but when we replaced the Fuchs with super market oil of *exactly* the same spec - it seized. I saw it with my own eyes.
An unscientific test but better than nothing at all I'd suggest.
It'll do magnificently. Bet they won't recommend you put it in your engine though.
Snake oil salesmen crap like this along with the dodgy practices of pushing product through the 'Good Garage Scheme' is why I will never, ever buy anything from Forte.
DonkeyApple said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Yes, it is. As stated further back, some VW engines need a specific blend to prevent camshaft wear. There are probably other engines out there with similar requirements.
But it's the consumers who are driving all this 'long life' oil isn't it? They want longer service intervals. The oil industry had to react accordingly. I'm pretty sure a typical VAG 2.0 TFSI engine run on cheap mineral oil, changed every 20K miles, wouldn't last as long as one run on the oil VW specified.
Yes but I don't think that is in dispute. The question is whether it matters if the engine doesn't last as long as the car will have been scrapped long before?But it's the consumers who are driving all this 'long life' oil isn't it? They want longer service intervals. The oil industry had to react accordingly. I'm pretty sure a typical VAG 2.0 TFSI engine run on cheap mineral oil, changed every 20K miles, wouldn't last as long as one run on the oil VW specified.
What we have had so far is some anecdotal tales, some theories and guesses and some marketing text from companies who's job it is to sell premium oils.
I think this thread could be genuinely beneficial if there were any actual facts out there to support claims that cheap oils will not allow the engine to last the useable lifetime of the vehicle.
Besides, if consumers are pushing for anything it is lower prices and the job of the manufacturers is to give them what looks like a better deal while still keeping revenues and margins growing. And that suggests that enforcing the use of expensive oils may be driven by other factors?
I use expensive oils in my cars and change the oil more regularly than any manufacturer would state. But I keep my cars for years. I very much suspect that in the average consumption of a normal utility transport box the quality of oil used is pretty much irrelevant because the car is going to be binned long before less efficient oil leads to the end of the engine?
Facts, everyone loves them. I think only Mobil have done proper scientific testing of their Mobil 1 vs a cheaper oil. Running 2 identical engines side by side for 1000s of miles is an extremely rare experiment, so there just isn't enough empirical data out there for anyone to be 100% sure.
My thoughts are:
1 - an engine will run for as long as it's lubricated. That can be 5 minutes or 5 decades.
2 - OEMs know a good deal more about this subject than we do. So if they specify a particular oil, it's wise to accept it.
I think the perception of cars being scrapped sooner is just that, a perception. Roads are getting busier & standards of driving are worse than ever, so most cars are being dumped because of accidents. All the lease cars will eventually end up in private ownership and people want to see evidence of dealer servicing, not back street Bob using Asda's own brand mineral oil.
We all know engine tolerances have become significantly tighter in modern engines. Tighter piston and bearing clearances, camshaft variators, precision turbos, high lift diesel cams pushing massive pressures - they all require a decent oil that won't sludge up quickly. We're not talking BL A series engines that need 20W/50 Duckhams Hypergrade. I have no doubt a modern engine if run on the correct oil can last indefinitely.
It's popular to bash Halfords on this forum and in this thread, Halfords oil specifically.
Halfords oil is not rubbish. Indeed Halfords do not 'make' oil. I seem to recall reading in the past that what you get in a Halfords oil bottle is, or was at that time at least, a 'Comma' product.
Halfords oil is not rubbish. Indeed Halfords do not 'make' oil. I seem to recall reading in the past that what you get in a Halfords oil bottle is, or was at that time at least, a 'Comma' product.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
I think the perception of cars being scrapped sooner is just that, a perception. Roads are getting busier & standards of driving are worse than ever, so most cars are being dumped because of accidents.
I'd be surprised if that were the case. PhillipM said:
Not only unscientific but also completely misleading crap - next time they come ask them if you can try some shampoo in it.
We did, we tried some car shampoo in and a couple of other liquids, IIRC. Interesting when you do the test yourself, and interesting to see the results differ. The only liquid that was 'successful' was the Forte and the engine oil we were supplying. It was really quite funny that we just happened to have to hand the said supermarket oil, and to see that it apparently had the same lubricity as cheap engine flush. 
Didn't buy any at the time either, it's too expensive. The sort of people who won't change their oil or spend on oil are too tight imo to pay anything much for any other product. Having seen how sludge forms throughout an engine too, and not just in the sump, I am still to be convinced that the flush fetches much of it out.
I have come to consider that those quibbling over a few quid are approaching cost effective car maintenance from entirely the wrong direction. I think worrying over just a few quid mars their ability to make proper judgments imo.
Having said that I also think the motor trade are to blame for that equally. I do think the charges from main dealerships for oil is totally unethical or immoral - it is an almighty rip-off. Those glass palaces have to be paid for though.
With most things in life, you get what you pay for but also, my motto is dont buy the most expensive, dont buy the cheapest, with a lot of things, the cheapest is pared down and not sometimes fit for purpose and the most expensive can be marketing and dubious added features, it isnt a black and white situation, it isnt 60 quid Truffle Oil infused Mobil 1 vs 20/50 recycled slops for 4 quid, there are degrees inbetween, that will perform adequately for the usage intended.
I put Mobil 1 in my old 944, it drank it and squirted a bit out, seemed happier on something thicker and cheaper and there is the rub, there are other variables liek age and mileage,what was a good bet when new might be a bit thing for an engine with 200k on it.
There is completely wrong, no oil and then lots of other degrees of acceptable.
A lot of the general public dont even get the whole "no oil" thing, "But it had an MOT three months ago", have heard the oil light, after being ignored called the "Gravy Boat light".
In my experience most engines that are killed are done through lack of oil, not grade, next door killed his car like that, dont think he will be joining this debate, his mental process I guess was never gave it a though.....s
t, three grand bill !
I put Mobil 1 in my old 944, it drank it and squirted a bit out, seemed happier on something thicker and cheaper and there is the rub, there are other variables liek age and mileage,what was a good bet when new might be a bit thing for an engine with 200k on it.
There is completely wrong, no oil and then lots of other degrees of acceptable.
A lot of the general public dont even get the whole "no oil" thing, "But it had an MOT three months ago", have heard the oil light, after being ignored called the "Gravy Boat light".
In my experience most engines that are killed are done through lack of oil, not grade, next door killed his car like that, dont think he will be joining this debate, his mental process I guess was never gave it a though.....s
t, three grand bill ! Puddenchucker said:
heebeegeetee said:
CABC said:
there are tribologists on bitog
Come again?People who study/engineer aspects of friction, wear & lubrication [in regard to machinery] and post on Bob is the Oil Guy forums.
(*Perhaps not something to Google at work)
EazyDuz said:
ALL oil sold has to meet quality regulations in the UK.
I know I'm wasting my time here, but I'll say it anyway (I'm procrastinating):All food in the UK must meet quality regulations, but if you live on a diet of McDonald's burgers, you're not likely to be doing so well as someone who eats a balanced diet of high quality ingredients. Both have passed the same quality requirements.
Similarly, if you're to have a 60mph head-on, you're better off having it in a 2016 XC90 than you are a 2016 Aygo. Both have passed the same crash tests.
Yet a third example. The chap with the First from Oxford is liable to be a better candidate than the young lady with the little brown Richard from Bedfordshire. Both have passed a degree course, but they aren't necessarily the same.
It's not a question of passes the tests or not, it's a question of by how far the minimum expectation is exceeded. I can't prove it (this represents a lack of desire to try on my part, rather than a lack of available evidence), but I'll say that Castol GTX exceeds the requirements by a far greater margin than ASDA's Cheap'n'easy.
heebeegeetee said:
We did, we tried some car shampoo in and a couple of other liquids, IIRC. Interesting when you do the test yourself, and interesting to see the results differ. The only liquid that was 'successful' was the Forte and the engine oil we were supplying. It was really quite funny that we just happened to have to hand the said supermarket oil, and to see that it apparently had the same lubricity as cheap engine flush.
Didn't buy any at the time either, it's too expensive. The sort of people who won't change their oil or spend on oil are too tight imo to pay anything much for any other product. Having seen how sludge forms throughout an engine too, and not just in the sump, I am still to be convinced that the flush fetches much of it out.
I have come to consider that those quibbling over a few quid are approaching cost effective car maintenance from entirely the wrong direction. I think worrying over just a few quid mars their ability to make proper judgments imo.
Having said that I also think the motor trade are to blame for that equally. I do think the charges from main dealerships for oil is totally unethical or immoral - it is an almighty rip-off. Those glass palaces have to be paid for though.
Top Gear US tried alternatives to oil too. Didn't end too well.Didn't buy any at the time either, it's too expensive. The sort of people who won't change their oil or spend on oil are too tight imo to pay anything much for any other product. Having seen how sludge forms throughout an engine too, and not just in the sump, I am still to be convinced that the flush fetches much of it out.
I have come to consider that those quibbling over a few quid are approaching cost effective car maintenance from entirely the wrong direction. I think worrying over just a few quid mars their ability to make proper judgments imo.
Having said that I also think the motor trade are to blame for that equally. I do think the charges from main dealerships for oil is totally unethical or immoral - it is an almighty rip-off. Those glass palaces have to be paid for though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfd4Q8eDcsE
Heaveho said:
Oil of Ulay's what you need, I mean, if it's called oil, it must be ok? Or does it work out as too expensive? Plus, they probably only do it in one viscosity. Hmmm. Er, fish oil, that's cheap. Or why not just use engine oil that's been drained out of someone else's car? Probably get that for nowt? No point in spending anything if you don't need to, right? It's not like an engine is difficult or expensive to fix if it goes bang, so why worry? Plus, once you've put oil in it once, why would you consider the need to replace it? It's just more oil......might as well leave the original in.
Anyway, I've decided you're probably right.
Oh no I've been found out!Anyway, I've decided you're probably right.
Edited by Heaveho on Wednesday 10th February 23:16
I use second hand oil in my daily.........I'll explain:
Use v expensive oil in the race car (E36 328) Millers Nanodrive, with the tesco methodology to making cars faster & better, 'every little helps' I change the oil every 4-5 races which is about 5 hours of race/qually running plus some bits of green flag, cool down etc laps. so lets say 7 hours of running.
I just couldn't bring myself to pour away 6-7 liters of expensive oil thats had that little running, so i filter it (few pairs of tights) and put it in the daily once a year! The daily hapens to be a road going E36 328
With oil in general to add something slightly constructive to the thread, if its a fast / performance car i'll used the best oil i can, if its an average / daily run about, i'll use what ever reasonable brand is on offer at Opie / ECP.
EazyDuz said:
I dont understand, why do people fork out extra for Castrol, Shell, Comma etc.
Wilko's own brand or Asda's own brand will be just as good, minus a few cleaning agents the competition might give.
It all must come from the same refinery, unless ASDA has its very own oil refinery for its oil. The expensive brands just add things to it, but your basic bog standard 10w40 will be exactly the same raw oil as any other brand.
Why pay more?
Maybe you will have a better understanding if you can ever afford something better than an Ebay spares or repairs car..Wilko's own brand or Asda's own brand will be just as good, minus a few cleaning agents the competition might give.
It all must come from the same refinery, unless ASDA has its very own oil refinery for its oil. The expensive brands just add things to it, but your basic bog standard 10w40 will be exactly the same raw oil as any other brand.
Why pay more?
oh on second thoughts why don't you post when you have less time ????
HustleRussell said:
It's popular to bash Halfords on this forum and in this thread, Halfords oil specifically.
Halfords oil is not rubbish. Indeed Halfords do not 'make' oil. I seem to recall reading in the past that what you get in a Halfords oil bottle is, or was at that time at least, a 'Comma' product.
Providing the oil meets the car maker's approval, it doesn't matter who makes it. Halfords oil is not rubbish. Indeed Halfords do not 'make' oil. I seem to recall reading in the past that what you get in a Halfords oil bottle is, or was at that time at least, a 'Comma' product.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
I think the perception of cars being scrapped sooner is just that, a perception. Roads are getting busier & standards of driving are worse than ever, so most cars are being dumped because of accidents.
I'd be surprised if that were the case. On a related note, Castrol are ar$eholes for STILL selling their oil in 4 litre tubs, and charging for it what others ask for 5 litres of comparable quality.
You think more and more cars are being scrapped from engine wear then?
Tommo Two said:
Heaveho said:
Oil of Ulay's what you need, I mean, if it's called oil, it must be ok? Or does it work out as too expensive? Plus, they probably only do it in one viscosity. Hmmm. Er, fish oil, that's cheap. Or why not just use engine oil that's been drained out of someone else's car? Probably get that for nowt? No point in spending anything if you don't need to, right? It's not like an engine is difficult or expensive to fix if it goes bang, so why worry? Plus, once you've put oil in it once, why would you consider the need to replace it? It's just more oil......might as well leave the original in.
Anyway, I've decided you're probably right.
Oh no I've been found out!Anyway, I've decided you're probably right.
Edited by Heaveho on Wednesday 10th February 23:16
I use second hand oil in my daily.........I'll explain:
Use v expensive oil in the race car (E36 328) Millers Nanodrive, with the tesco methodology to making cars faster & better, 'every little helps' I change the oil every 4-5 races which is about 5 hours of race/qually running plus some bits of green flag, cool down etc laps. so lets say 7 hours of running.
I just couldn't bring myself to pour away 6-7 liters of expensive oil thats had that little running, so i filter it (few pairs of tights) and put it in the daily once a year! The daily hapens to be a road going E36 328
With oil in general to add something slightly constructive to the thread, if its a fast / performance car i'll used the best oil i can, if its an average / daily run about, i'll use what ever reasonable brand is on offer at Opie / ECP.
I use Mannol 5W-30 in both my (turbodiesel) vehicles, a Zafira 120 with 200,000 km and an E90 320d with 181,000km.
This oil meets both GM Dexos 2 and BMW LL-04 regs.
The cars get an oil & filter change about every 12,000km / year, whatever comes first, and are running well.
The Mannol stuff is about €18 for 5 litres, delivered to my door.
Am I doing something wrong? Should I be buying 5w-30 from BMW at approx. twice the price?
This oil meets both GM Dexos 2 and BMW LL-04 regs.
The cars get an oil & filter change about every 12,000km / year, whatever comes first, and are running well.
The Mannol stuff is about €18 for 5 litres, delivered to my door.
Am I doing something wrong? Should I be buying 5w-30 from BMW at approx. twice the price?
Hi
If oils meet the requirements for the car, then they are fine, but that is not always as clear as it might seem. Unless the oil is approved by the manufacturer, it could lead to warranty being voided on newer cars. If the oil says something along the lines of 'Meets the requirements of BMW LL04' then it's likely to be fine, but you are taking the oil companies word for it and it could lead to warranty issues (not something to worry about with older cars).
Dealership oils are often 5 times the price of suitable approved oils, so you can make a decent saving, while still using the right stuff. From speaking to some customers who work in dealerships, they are charged a fortune by the parent company for the oil, often making it cheaper to buy from us, rather than at cost price from where they work.
Cheers
Tim
If oils meet the requirements for the car, then they are fine, but that is not always as clear as it might seem. Unless the oil is approved by the manufacturer, it could lead to warranty being voided on newer cars. If the oil says something along the lines of 'Meets the requirements of BMW LL04' then it's likely to be fine, but you are taking the oil companies word for it and it could lead to warranty issues (not something to worry about with older cars).
Dealership oils are often 5 times the price of suitable approved oils, so you can make a decent saving, while still using the right stuff. From speaking to some customers who work in dealerships, they are charged a fortune by the parent company for the oil, often making it cheaper to buy from us, rather than at cost price from where they work.
Cheers
Tim
Edited by opieoilman on Thursday 11th February 15:21
J4CKO said:
I just know if I did that I would be found crouching in the garage surrounded by several pairs of oily ladies tights, how do you get them back without her noticing ?
Who said they were hers?I may (but definatly didn't) have spent 30 mins chatting to Jane the retail assisant about which denier whould be suitable for 5w40, she asked: 'was it any old crappy oil or if it was premium, as the addidtives in the premium oils filter better through the 10 - 15 denier. Also what size I was?' "Small to Medium ofcouse depending on what......... UM doesn't matter its just for OIL, so XXL for more filter area per ££...... here's a £20 keep the change, bye!"
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff