Bluesmoking newly restored engine
Discussion
Hi all,
Yes, I have searched this forum for topics about piston rings and found some, but none really describing my problem.
My Griff 500 is newly restored including a complete engine rebuild. It has run for just a short while since finished, perhaps 5–10 startups, and very soon I noticed blue smoke from the exhaust while reving up and then releasing the throttle. Nothing upon start and nothing at idling. Well, not as far as I can detect by eye anyway. I also have some clearly visible smoke coming out of the crank vent hose if I pop it loose. Not much pressure from there, but smoke. Yes, filthy smoke. Not OK!
Must be some issues with the piston rings, says my experience. Yes, the engine is new and all (relined by V8 Developments), there shouldn't be any problem with the ... well yes, I'm thinking it might as well be faulty rings. Because:
- I had major problems when balancing the inner parts of the engine, the rings had to go on and off the pistons several times for various reasons. The rings were "twisted" back and forth, time and again. Do you think that they may have lost their elasticity due to this? Sounds reasonable? Note: All rings were carefully gaptested before installed. Not sure about how tight the oil rings are allowed to be in their grooves though. Ideas?
- I also happened to run the engine a bit hot on the very first start. Had no reliable temp gauge connected and there appeared to be some air gaps in the cooling system. Are the rings sensative to this, do you think?
I bought the piston rings from TVR Parts, their cheapest kit for something like £48. A bad choice? If I go for new rings now, which I probably need to, I really need some good advice what to go for. I've heard about "Total Seal" rings. Worth a try? Where to get? TVR Parts seems to offer a more expensive type also, sold per piston. Seen some at Racetech Direct too. The Hungarian TVR enthusiast Verpoorten Automotive offers "V8 Performance Rings" – "Torsional Plasma Moly High Tensional ..." and so on. Any experience?
As usual – I would very much appreciate all your input! It isn't exactly a dreamjob to lift the heads again, pop the sump etc etc. Regards/Stefan in SWE
Yes, I have searched this forum for topics about piston rings and found some, but none really describing my problem.
My Griff 500 is newly restored including a complete engine rebuild. It has run for just a short while since finished, perhaps 5–10 startups, and very soon I noticed blue smoke from the exhaust while reving up and then releasing the throttle. Nothing upon start and nothing at idling. Well, not as far as I can detect by eye anyway. I also have some clearly visible smoke coming out of the crank vent hose if I pop it loose. Not much pressure from there, but smoke. Yes, filthy smoke. Not OK!
Must be some issues with the piston rings, says my experience. Yes, the engine is new and all (relined by V8 Developments), there shouldn't be any problem with the ... well yes, I'm thinking it might as well be faulty rings. Because:
- I had major problems when balancing the inner parts of the engine, the rings had to go on and off the pistons several times for various reasons. The rings were "twisted" back and forth, time and again. Do you think that they may have lost their elasticity due to this? Sounds reasonable? Note: All rings were carefully gaptested before installed. Not sure about how tight the oil rings are allowed to be in their grooves though. Ideas?
- I also happened to run the engine a bit hot on the very first start. Had no reliable temp gauge connected and there appeared to be some air gaps in the cooling system. Are the rings sensative to this, do you think?
I bought the piston rings from TVR Parts, their cheapest kit for something like £48. A bad choice? If I go for new rings now, which I probably need to, I really need some good advice what to go for. I've heard about "Total Seal" rings. Worth a try? Where to get? TVR Parts seems to offer a more expensive type also, sold per piston. Seen some at Racetech Direct too. The Hungarian TVR enthusiast Verpoorten Automotive offers "V8 Performance Rings" – "Torsional Plasma Moly High Tensional ..." and so on. Any experience?
As usual – I would very much appreciate all your input! It isn't exactly a dreamjob to lift the heads again, pop the sump etc etc. Regards/Stefan in SWE
Steffo said:
Hi all,
Yes, I have searched this forum for topics about piston rings and found some, but none really describing my problem.
My Griff 500 is newly restored including a complete engine rebuild. It has run for just a short while since finished, perhaps 5–10 startups, and very soon I noticed blue smoke from the exhaust while reving up and then releasing the throttle. Nothing upon start and nothing at idling. Well, not as far as I can detect by eye anyway. I also have some clearly visible smoke coming out of the crank vent hose if I pop it loose. Not much pressure from there, but smoke. Yes, filthy smoke. Not OK!
Must be some issues with the piston rings, says my experience. Yes, the engine is new and all (relined by V8 Developments), there shouldn't be any problem with the ... well yes, I'm thinking it might as well be faulty rings. Because:
- I had major problems when balancing the inner parts of the engine, the rings had to go on and off the pistons several times for various reasons. The rings were "twisted" back and forth, time and again. Do you think that they may have lost their elasticity due to this? Sounds reasonable? Note: All rings were carefully gaptested before installed. Not sure about how tight the oil rings are allowed to be in their grooves though. Ideas?
- I also happened to run the engine a bit hot on the very first start. Had no reliable temp gauge connected and there appeared to be some air gaps in the cooling system. Are the rings sensative to this, do you think?
I bought the piston rings from TVR Parts, their cheapest kit for something like £48. A bad choice? If I go for new rings now, which I probably need to, I really need some good advice what to go for. I've heard about "Total Seal" rings. Worth a try? Where to get? TVR Parts seems to offer a more expensive type also, sold per piston. Seen some at Racetech Direct too. The Hungarian TVR enthusiast Verpoorten Automotive offers "V8 Performance Rings" – "Torsional Plasma Moly High Tensional ..." and so on. Any experience?
As usual – I would very much appreciate all your input! It isn't exactly a dreamjob to lift the heads again, pop the sump etc etc. Regards/Stefan in SWE
I would run it for a few thousand miles to let everything bed in, it is the rings that take the longest and need the most care when running in.Yes, I have searched this forum for topics about piston rings and found some, but none really describing my problem.
My Griff 500 is newly restored including a complete engine rebuild. It has run for just a short while since finished, perhaps 5–10 startups, and very soon I noticed blue smoke from the exhaust while reving up and then releasing the throttle. Nothing upon start and nothing at idling. Well, not as far as I can detect by eye anyway. I also have some clearly visible smoke coming out of the crank vent hose if I pop it loose. Not much pressure from there, but smoke. Yes, filthy smoke. Not OK!
Must be some issues with the piston rings, says my experience. Yes, the engine is new and all (relined by V8 Developments), there shouldn't be any problem with the ... well yes, I'm thinking it might as well be faulty rings. Because:
- I had major problems when balancing the inner parts of the engine, the rings had to go on and off the pistons several times for various reasons. The rings were "twisted" back and forth, time and again. Do you think that they may have lost their elasticity due to this? Sounds reasonable? Note: All rings were carefully gaptested before installed. Not sure about how tight the oil rings are allowed to be in their grooves though. Ideas?
- I also happened to run the engine a bit hot on the very first start. Had no reliable temp gauge connected and there appeared to be some air gaps in the cooling system. Are the rings sensative to this, do you think?
I bought the piston rings from TVR Parts, their cheapest kit for something like £48. A bad choice? If I go for new rings now, which I probably need to, I really need some good advice what to go for. I've heard about "Total Seal" rings. Worth a try? Where to get? TVR Parts seems to offer a more expensive type also, sold per piston. Seen some at Racetech Direct too. The Hungarian TVR enthusiast Verpoorten Automotive offers "V8 Performance Rings" – "Torsional Plasma Moly High Tensional ..." and so on. Any experience?
As usual – I would very much appreciate all your input! It isn't exactly a dreamjob to lift the heads again, pop the sump etc etc. Regards/Stefan in SWE
It is not unusual for a rebuilt engine to use some oil at first.
If still smoking then a compression test may tell you more.
After rebuilding our Taimar (along with rebuilt engine) it smoked a fair bit for a while before it settled down (still blows a puff on a hot restart so possibly needs guides looking at again). Everything should have been coated with oil/build lube on the engine, so plenty of stuff about to burn off for a little while.
I'm sure I saw somewhere that it was better for first start to be slightly hotter, as it should mean it's not running rich and so washing bores, and helps rings bed in.
As above, if everything else seems fine, I'd just run it some more and see how things go.
I'm sure I saw somewhere that it was better for first start to be slightly hotter, as it should mean it's not running rich and so washing bores, and helps rings bed in.
As above, if everything else seems fine, I'd just run it some more and see how things go.
OP, it may be a good idea to start it up and give it a quick dose of revs, just one or two healthy blips. This helps with the initial bedding in of the rings. Then, if it were my car I'd take it for a drive and vary the load and revs. New engines can smoke at first because there's probably lots of oil on the bores and in the valve guides. If the smoke doesn't clear the it's time for a compression test. Just try a couple of miles for the drive. If it's still smoking then there's an issue.
As for piston rings. I always use Total Seal and have done so on all my builds for many years. They work well but the gapless ones may cause excess oil to be drawn through the pvc system at idle which can cause smoke. It can be remedied easily enough.
I doyubt removing and refitting your piston rings will have damaged them as long as you were careful.
As for piston rings. I always use Total Seal and have done so on all my builds for many years. They work well but the gapless ones may cause excess oil to be drawn through the pvc system at idle which can cause smoke. It can be remedied easily enough.
I doyubt removing and refitting your piston rings will have damaged them as long as you were careful.
macdeb said:
I wouldn't use gapless rings.
Why not Mac? They do have an effect on the pcv and increase idle vacuuam. Some peeps don't seem able to deal with that but I've used them on lots of engines and many turbo builds without any issues. Some set ups use the gapless ring in the top groove but I've not yet tried that. I've no idea if they are better then conventional rings but as said, I've not had problems with them.Thanks for all your input! Great forum this is.
I would love to take the car out for a proper tour to let it run in nicely, but up here in Sweden we usually let our fine open cars stay inside during winter. I'd rather not try the Griff on salty, snowy roads ... I know that a proper run in is necessary to bed in all bits, but this is not the first engine I'm rebuilding and I can't recall seeing blue smoke after say 20 minutes of running on my previous rebuilds. For a short while perhaps, when the engine is "wiping off" the initial oil coat from assembling, but that is more like seconds. However, this is my first Rover V8, so could of course be individual differences.
As said, I've run it for say 20–30 minutes maximum, mostly standing still and with varying revs. Most notable is the constant smoke coming out of the crank vent hose, from exhaust only at certain revs. Probably I will have to run it more before final judgement. But with the seasons we have here I would have perefered to get it all fixed BEFORE the sun is back and the car is out on the road again. Letting it run for hours standing still is not that tempting ...
I'm using semi synthetic oil, 10W-40. Should I use thicker mineral?
And yes, the rings are installed with the correct face upwards.
I will do a compression test and see what it shows. I have a meter lying around, so why not.
Thanks again for your comments!
I would love to take the car out for a proper tour to let it run in nicely, but up here in Sweden we usually let our fine open cars stay inside during winter. I'd rather not try the Griff on salty, snowy roads ... I know that a proper run in is necessary to bed in all bits, but this is not the first engine I'm rebuilding and I can't recall seeing blue smoke after say 20 minutes of running on my previous rebuilds. For a short while perhaps, when the engine is "wiping off" the initial oil coat from assembling, but that is more like seconds. However, this is my first Rover V8, so could of course be individual differences.
As said, I've run it for say 20–30 minutes maximum, mostly standing still and with varying revs. Most notable is the constant smoke coming out of the crank vent hose, from exhaust only at certain revs. Probably I will have to run it more before final judgement. But with the seasons we have here I would have perefered to get it all fixed BEFORE the sun is back and the car is out on the road again. Letting it run for hours standing still is not that tempting ...
I'm using semi synthetic oil, 10W-40. Should I use thicker mineral?
And yes, the rings are installed with the correct face upwards.
I will do a compression test and see what it shows. I have a meter lying around, so why not.
Thanks again for your comments!
TVR Beaver said:
Id use mineral oil till its run in... synthetic and overheating can glaze bores I guess.... may be worth trying some Valvoline VR1 mineral for a bit.. 
This or just use something cheap and non synthetic for the initial bedding in. You could use a classic 20/50 mineral oil if available to you?BTW, are all the plugs the same colour?
TVR Beaver said:
Id use mineral oil till its run in... synthetic and overheating can glaze bores I guess.... may be worth trying some Valvoline VR1 mineral for a bit..
VR1 is all I use. Having it running for half an hour at standstill varying revs will do it no favours. Should be start up, check for leaks, up to temp' and leave to cool. Then out on road as described earlier.Hello Seffo,
You say that your engine was a full rebuild, did you have new liners or an oversize re-bore plus honing to get the correct bore finish.
If none of the above, did you just buy new piston rings and fit the new rings onto old pistons? If the answer is yes to the latter, then did you check the cylinder bores for being oval. There would be more wear at the top of the cylinder bore compared to the bottom. Because your OLD PISTONS/RINGS would have worn to the shape of the old cylinder bores, your new rings will never seal properly.
Failing that, the previous e-mails are all relevant to your problem
You say that your engine was a full rebuild, did you have new liners or an oversize re-bore plus honing to get the correct bore finish.
If none of the above, did you just buy new piston rings and fit the new rings onto old pistons? If the answer is yes to the latter, then did you check the cylinder bores for being oval. There would be more wear at the top of the cylinder bore compared to the bottom. Because your OLD PISTONS/RINGS would have worn to the shape of the old cylinder bores, your new rings will never seal properly.
Failing that, the previous e-mails are all relevant to your problem
macdeb said:
VR1 is all I use. Having it running for half an hour at standstill varying revs will do it no favours. Should be start up, check for leaks, up to temp' and leave to cool. Then out on road as described earlier.
This ^ you have only hours to scuff in those rings once this window of opportunity as closed your left with the outcome be it good or bad in certain cases 
if your fortunate the oil usage may slow over thousands of miles of usage through further break-in but its slow if not next to nothing 
contrary to popular belief bog standard 20/50 VR1 is a mineral oil but it contains the necessary levels of zinc ZDDP for correct lubrication of flat tappet valve gear and ideal for 1st fill however Valvoline do a fully syn VR1 with a wider viscosity which I would only consider using after a few thousand miles have elapsed, I personally used Comp Cams (zinc too) break in oil for the 1st 300 miles and even though only a 5/30 showed good oil pressure and no noticable oil usage Edited by Sardonicus on Friday 19th February 13:01
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