RE: Skoda Octavia vRS Revo Technik: Driven
Discussion
V8RX7 said:
kambites said:
I don't think it's a question of being "caught out by it" - everyone knew what you meant. It's a question of pedantry. 
I didn't.I've been on car forums since they've been in existence and modified more cars than most will ever own and not once has anyone called an LSD a differential.
Perhaps it's common parlance on the Max Power type forums.
Edited by gigglebug on Friday 12th February 10:43
ToothbrushMan said:
is the DSG box the same as in the Golf R? the same one that apparently VW say is limited to 280lb/ft.
weve got 380lb/ft here......or is it the 4wd transfer box thats the limiting factor in the Golf?
Isn't there also a limit to how many launch controls you can do?weve got 380lb/ft here......or is it the 4wd transfer box thats the limiting factor in the Golf?
I don't know about the current boxes, but up to MK6 Golf, it was the casings that were the weakest link. The bearing carriers in the end case are borderline with the thrust loadings and over time, they ovalise, causing the gear shafts to move apart slightly. In a standard car this results in noise and vibration. In a boosted car it can result in gear teeth shearing off. And VW still rivet the crown wheel, the heads of which like to make a bid for freedom and smash a hole through the diff case. Nice.
As MaxTorque said, 13K miles development is nothing. If VW put a 280lbft limit on the gearbox, you're on borrowed time!
kambites said:
I can't imagine many people actually do this sort of thing to a car that's still under warranty anyway? I'd always assumed these upgrades were aimed largely at second-owners.
If you can afford to replace the gearbox because you shredded it by putting through too much torque with you upgrades then you can afford to mod the car regardless of age/warranty status. I'd expect VW to fix the aircon, suspension, the electric windows, etc. even if I've replaced the turbo, so a warranty would still have some value.
If you can't afford to repair it when it goes wrong then you shouldn't be upgrading the car, and probably shouldn't be buying the car in the first place if its out of warranty.
I've done the cheap car (£4k) with major upgrades (turbo, intercooler, injectors, etc. etc.) and it would have made more sense to just spend the same on something that was as fast from the production line.
tankplanker said:
If you can't afford to repair it when it goes wrong then you shouldn't be upgrading the car,
If you can't afford to repair it or throw it away, you shouldn't be upgrading the car. On an older car the latter might be more viable than the former if you manage to snap the crank or something equally catastrophic. tankplanker said:
I've done the cheap car (£4k) with major upgrades (turbo, intercooler, injectors, etc. etc.) and it would have made more sense to just spend the same on something that was as fast from the production line.
Very true but for some, if not many, modifying a cheaper car over an extended period of time is often the only way it can make sense financially even if the end results don't quite stack up. It's also nice to make a car your own as well of course, I've always tinkered with my cars in some shape or form. kambites said:
If you can't afford to repair it or throw it away, you shouldn't be upgrading the car. On an older car the latter might be more viable than the former if you manage to snap the crank or something equally catastrophic.
It depends if you can get much return on breaking the car for parts if you are scrapping it due to uneconomical repairs. Even £4k is a lot to throw away, if you don't think so then please send me £4k, I'll give it a good home! gigglebug said:
Very true but for some, if not many, modifying a cheaper car over an extended period of time is often the only way it can make sense financially even if the end results don't quite stack up. It's also nice to make a car your own as well of course, I've always tinkered with my cars in some shape or form.
Does depend on the car and how long I'm going to own that car. Turning a derv shopping trolley (which I've done) into a proper hot hatch when I could have had a 335d for the same overall money even if it meant buying the 335d on finance rather than cash just doesn't make sense. If I'd started with a good 335d that I'm going to keep for a number of years then its a different story as the 335d is a much better starting point and has more options to go to, but even then a M3 would make more sense.RevoMichael said:
To clarify - the stock 7R/S3 run more than 1bar boost stock, nearly 1.2bar in fact. Secondly this vRS isn't running 2.0 bar, or even 1.8 bar, it is less than that, running 2bar on a car with stock internals would be asking for trouble.
Whereas running 410bhp on standard internals from a 220bhp car isn't asking for trouble? Without any extra cooling or supporting modifications.Putting a big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard. Doing it properly requires a lot more though, and I find this article misleading when it could have been a lot more informative.
Sadly we can't help you get behind the wheel of the Revo Octavia vRS for a drive, but we if you fancy having a go in a standard one this weekend then just click here and book a test drive. Then just buy one and build your own, and let us know about it!
SuperchargedVR6 said:
ToothbrushMan said:
is the DSG box the same as in the Golf R? the same one that apparently VW say is limited to 280lb/ft.
weve got 380lb/ft here......or is it the 4wd transfer box thats the limiting factor in the Golf?
Isn't there also a limit to how many launch controls you can do?weve got 380lb/ft here......or is it the 4wd transfer box thats the limiting factor in the Golf?
I don't know about the current boxes, but up to MK6 Golf, it was the casings that were the weakest link. The bearing carriers in the end case are borderline with the thrust loadings and over time, they ovalise, causing the gear shafts to move apart slightly. In a standard car this results in noise and vibration. In a boosted car it can result in gear teeth shearing off. And VW still rivet the crown wheel, the heads of which like to make a bid for freedom and smash a hole through the diff case. Nice.
As MaxTorque said, 13K miles development is nothing. If VW put a 280lbft limit on the gearbox, you're on borrowed time!
tankplanker said:
Does depend on the car and how long I'm going to own that car. Turning a derv shopping trolley (which I've done) into a proper hot hatch when I could have had a 335d for the same overall money even if it meant buying the 335d on finance rather than cash just doesn't make sense. If I'd started with a good 335d that I'm going to keep for a number of years then its a different story as the 335d is a much better starting point and has more options to go to, but even then a M3 would make more sense.
If, just for example, I had a 6K budget for a car I have always bought the best 6K car I could find, I've never bought well within the budget the used the rest to upgrade performance as it were (though many do for one reason or another and don't begrudge them that). Leaving a bit aside to correct any niggles, replace worn expendables like tyres etc is all I budget for really initially. I'm more referring to the many who buy the best car they can afford at the time, like me, then add to it if and when funds allow. Unless your in the fortunate position to afford what you like, when you like there is always a realistic ceiling to what you are going to be able to buy based on finances and there is always likely to be a sweeter cherry just out of reach.gigglebug said:
If, just for example, I had a 6K budget for a car I have always bought the best 6K car I could find, I've never bought well within the budget the used the rest to upgrade performance as it were (though many do for one reason or another and don't begrudge them that). Leaving a bit aside to correct any niggles, replace worn expendables like tyres etc is all I budget for really initially. I'm more referring to the many who buy the best car they can afford at the time, like me, then add to it if and when funds allow. Unless your in the fortunate position to afford what you like, when you like there is always a realistic ceiling to what you are going to be able to buy based on finances and there is always likely to be a sweeter cherry just out of reach.
I look at it as total money spent over my ownership for the car, if I spent £4k buying the car, another £4k upgrading it over the 4 year period I owned it, another £500 on servicing and MOT costs, I've spent £8500, or ~£177 a month, assuming I'd spent cash for all of that. £8500 via a loan is ~£190, not a huge amount more and I could have spent all of that upfront on something better while keeping some back to pay for repairs so I've been able to enjoy the extra performance for longer. I'd bet that insurance is a fair bit cheaper than a fully declared heavily upgraded car based on my experience, other running costs are going to be about the same. Resale for the more expensive car should be higher as well.Now if its a hobby then its a different story.
Scottie - NW said:
Whereas running 410bhp on standard internals from a 220bhp car isn't asking for trouble? Without any extra cooling or supporting modifications.
Putting a big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard. Doing it properly requires a lot more though, and I find this article misleading when it could have been a lot more informative.
Totally application specific though isn't it i.e. some cars will have a lot in reserve, particularly VAG cars which likely share parts with more powerful models for cost saving.Putting a big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard. Doing it properly requires a lot more though, and I find this article misleading when it could have been a lot more informative.
tankplanker said:
I look at it as total money spent over my ownership for the car, if I spent £4k buying the car, another £4k upgrading it over the 4 year period I owned it, another £500 on servicing and MOT costs, I've spent £8500, or ~£177 a month, assuming I'd spent cash for all of that. £8500 via a loan is ~£190, not a huge amount more and I could have spent all of that upfront on something better while keeping some back to pay for repairs so I've been able to enjoy the extra performance for longer. I'd bet that insurance is a fair bit cheaper than a fully declared heavily upgraded car based on my experience, other running costs are going to be about the same. Resale for the more expensive car should be higher as well.
Now if its a hobby then its a different story.
Oh I fully understand what your saying and agree in principle but for some that is irrelevant. I for one have never bought a car using finance and many don't. I just buy the best of whatever interests me at the time for the amount I can afford to pay at the time, I've been prepared to wait and save for something worthwhile but not for long. I'm sure if I added up all the money I have spent on various cars over the years, even over the last 10 years, it would add up to an amount that would have been able to buy something far higher up the food chain with better build quality, performance and residuals than anything I actually have bought but I'd never have been able to afford to buy it in one go in the first place so it's academic really. I guess my point is that a lot of folks into cars like to tinker, regardless of the level of car they have bought, ranging from the very small cosmetic upgrades right through to full makeovers. For the most part I think it more to do with us liking to think we're individual. I for one have never just thrown money at a car and hoped for the best though but if your prepared to research you'll most likely find there are well proven ways of improving nearly all cars out there and I would still have the itch to tinker with your hypothetical 8.5K car even if it was better in the first place. Horses for courses and all that maybe?Now if its a hobby then its a different story.
MDMA . said:
chuntington101 said:
Is this on the stock intercooler?
yes. with stock plastic ends. should be fun.just turn the boost up bro !
Add the cooling benefit of a larger unit and you thought it would be part and parcel of the kit.
Scottie - NW said:
Whereas running 410bhp on standard internals from a 220bhp car isn't asking for trouble? Without any extra cooling or supporting modifications.
Putting a big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard. Doing it properly requires a lot more though, and I find this article misleading when it could have been a lot more informative.
It does have an intercooler fitted, sorry, it should be listed in the original article, I will ask to be amended. Also it is on the stock fuel system, runs quite happily without any upgrades being required.Putting a big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard. Doing it properly requires a lot more though, and I find this article misleading when it could have been a lot more informative.
This isn't a big turbo build, it is an OE upgrade path making a 7GTi/vRS into a car that can match (and beat) a 7R/S3/Leon. You could have more parts added eg brakes, full suspension etc but we tried to keep it relatively simple but have a package that demonstrated what you could have for sensible (ish)money. Perhaps not a big market in the UK but it is in our other regions where OE upgrades are common.
And you're right in saying "big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard", however getting one calibration to function correctly for all climactic and atmospheric conditions is. This same calibration runs in the 7Gti/vRS in UK/Europe, Russia, South Africa, Asia and Brazil and is the result of over 6 months development on multiple cars in these regions.
Anyhoo this is my daily driver which regularly gets high 30's mpg, with my 3 boys in the back, 2 dogs in the boot and Mrs asleep in the front
Happy days.Any further queries or concerns I'll do my best to answer.
RevoMichael said:
AER said:
That'd be more WHP neasurements then (w
k Horse Power)
410hp at 5400 is 34 and a bit Bar BMEP - yes something will break and the conrod bearings are probably beyond their fatigue limit - expect catastrophic lubrication failure if you use all that power (if it exists)
Of course, the boost levels to get this power means you've taken the standard Golf R-spec engine from 1 bar (normal) to 1.8-2.0Bar boost and perhaps beyond (ridiculous!). Sure, there's the new turbo (knicked from the Golf R) but really, the extra compression heating is going to be enormous and difficult to get rid of. Where's the monster intercooler radiator grazing it's chin? Peak cylinder pressures will be through the roof and who knows what the exhaust valve bridge temperatures are doing.
If the engine lasts, then it's not making 410hp. If it doesn't last, it still might not be making 410hp, but also remember plenty of sensible people told you so too!
To clarify - the stock 7R/S3 run more than 1bar boost stock, nearly 1.2bar in fact. Secondly this vRS isn't running 2.0 bar, or even 1.8 bar, it is less than that, running 2bar on a car with stock internals would be asking for trouble.k Horse Power)410hp at 5400 is 34 and a bit Bar BMEP - yes something will break and the conrod bearings are probably beyond their fatigue limit - expect catastrophic lubrication failure if you use all that power (if it exists)
Of course, the boost levels to get this power means you've taken the standard Golf R-spec engine from 1 bar (normal) to 1.8-2.0Bar boost and perhaps beyond (ridiculous!). Sure, there's the new turbo (knicked from the Golf R) but really, the extra compression heating is going to be enormous and difficult to get rid of. Where's the monster intercooler radiator grazing it's chin? Peak cylinder pressures will be through the roof and who knows what the exhaust valve bridge temperatures are doing.
If the engine lasts, then it's not making 410hp. If it doesn't last, it still might not be making 410hp, but also remember plenty of sensible people told you so too!
WHP indeed!
Edited by AER on Friday 12th February 13:23
RevoMichael said:
It does have an intercooler fitted, sorry, it should be listed in the original article, I will ask to be amended. Also it is on the stock fuel system, runs quite happily without any upgrades being required.
This isn't a big turbo build, it is an OE upgrade path making a 7GTi/vRS into a car that can match (and beat) a 7R/S3/Leon. You could have more parts added eg brakes, full suspension etc but we tried to keep it relatively simple but have a package that demonstrated what you could have for sensible (ish)money. Perhaps not a big market in the UK but it is in our other regions where OE upgrades are common.
And you're right in saying "big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard", however getting one calibration to function correctly for all climactic and atmospheric conditions is. This same calibration runs in the 7Gti/vRS in UK/Europe, Russia, South Africa, Asia and Brazil and is the result of over 6 months development on multiple cars in these regions.
Anyhoo this is my daily driver which regularly gets high 30's mpg, with my 3 boys in the back, 2 dogs in the boot and Mrs asleep in the front Happy days.
Any further queries or concerns I'll do my best to answer.
Yes would love to know more details, I think this is what was perhaps missing from the article.This isn't a big turbo build, it is an OE upgrade path making a 7GTi/vRS into a car that can match (and beat) a 7R/S3/Leon. You could have more parts added eg brakes, full suspension etc but we tried to keep it relatively simple but have a package that demonstrated what you could have for sensible (ish)money. Perhaps not a big market in the UK but it is in our other regions where OE upgrades are common.
And you're right in saying "big turbo/injectors on an engine and making big power is not hard", however getting one calibration to function correctly for all climactic and atmospheric conditions is. This same calibration runs in the 7Gti/vRS in UK/Europe, Russia, South Africa, Asia and Brazil and is the result of over 6 months development on multiple cars in these regions.
Anyhoo this is my daily driver which regularly gets high 30's mpg, with my 3 boys in the back, 2 dogs in the boot and Mrs asleep in the front
Happy days.Any further queries or concerns I'll do my best to answer.
I also used my 400bhp 2 litre as a daily for many years, did the School run in it and Ring each year, trackdays and so on, but once I started using it for competition use the suspension changes to 10/8 coilovers, all the alignment arms rose joints, 60mm drop in ride height, semi slicks, solid mounted subframe, race seats and harnesses made it no longer a daily, and the arrival of a dog meant I had to run an estate as the daily car.
So from this point of view, I am interested, and when the estate needs changing shortly to a 3 year old one I will be looking at a 2 litre turbo petrol estate as the economy figures they now achieve are very respectable, and often even better when remapped
And then I can have a moderately tuned daily estate to enjoy on my 12 mile B road countryside commute!
EDIT : Yes, the calibration and mapping for all conditions is the impressive part, too many "mappers/tuners" only concentrate on a headline BHP figure, whereas the best ones give you a car that operates well in all conditions, climates, part throttle, mid range and improved economy etc.
Edited by Scottie - NW on Friday 12th February 13:27
AER said:
If the standard car is running 1.2Bar and you're not running above 2.0 Bar then there simply isn't enough air there to make the power you're claiming
I'm no expert, but I thought you flowed more air from a larger turbo even at the same pressure level, so 1.2 bar on one turbo does not equate to 1.2bar on another?Happy for someone who knows more to explain this better
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