Elderly relative *possibly* being conned - what to do?

Elderly relative *possibly* being conned - what to do?

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irocfan

Original Poster:

40,156 posts

189 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
I hope that this is in the correct section - apols if not.

Here we go...

my wife's elderly aunt (92) is being cared for by her neighbour (let's call him 'Freddy', 84) which on the face of it is great given that the relie is quite a ways away from everyone else and to be fair he does go round every day and called the ambulance when she had a bad turn etc etc. So far so good. However as you might imagine this is where things start taking a different turn... aunt has changed her will to leave the majority of her estate to 'Freddy'. Again while it may put a few noses out of joint SFW, it's her money/estate, she can do what she likes. The issue is it, potentially, then becomes a little more murky. Not only has 'Freddy' got power of attorney and is now trying to stop her family from talking to/seeing her ("she's upset and doesn't want to talk to/see you. I've got P.o.A. and I don't want to talk to you"), again not proof positive and it could be genuine. The issue is that he has got previous with this (which was known), he became friendly with a widow looked after her and was left a healthy sum and the family has now found out he'd actually done this to yet another widow prior to this and had a major falling out with that late lady's family...

Now I have got 'no dog in this fight' (since I have only met the lady a few times) but my M.i.L. has now fallen out with her only remaining sibling ("I told you in confidence"... except she didn't tell my M.i.L.) and these suspicions are floating around like a bad smell. The question obviously is what, if anything, can be done. We think that aunt is fully compos mentis but who knows....

Soov535

35,829 posts

270 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
If she's of sound mind then not much. It's her money and she can do what she wants with it. If he's got POA then she must have signed it and it would have been though a solicitor

Planet Claire

3,316 posts

208 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
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It may be worth contacting her local social services to investigate under adult safeguarding procedures.

Where a local authority has reasonable cause to suspect that an adult:
a) has needs for care and support (whether or not the authority is meeting any of those needs)
b) is experiencing, or is at risk of, abuse or neglect and,
c) as a result of those needs is unable to protect themselves against the abuse or neglect or the risk of it.

The local authority must make (or cause to be made) whatever enquiries it thinks necessary to enable it to decide whether any action should be taken in the adults case, and, if so, what and by whom.

"Abuse", includes financial abuse, and for that purpose financial abuse includes:
a) having money or other property stolen
b) being defrauded
c) being put under pressure in relation to money or other property, and
d) having money or other property misused.

Above is taken from the Care Act legislation for safeguarding. If I was in your shoes I would be tempted to give social services a call. Their safeguarding procedures and contact details should be on the local authorities website.

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
A POA is only active when registered; if it was set up in the last few years then it's not a POA but an EPA - so if it really is a POA then it's not new. Registration is usually when the subject cannot make their own decisions, and has to be done with the agreement of the solicitor. If it's not registered then Freddy doesn't legally control anything, least of all money.

It's time to go round and talk to her and find out if (a) she really is 'upset' and doesn't want to talk to you (b) Freddy really does have POA. It could all be smoke and mirrors; let's hope so.

Old people can be easily taken in/duped, and can also say one thing one day and the opposite the next. Find out the truth. Whilst she may still be of 'sound mind' it does sound as though Freddy has the lever in and is pulling hard.

Are there any reasons why she might not want to see the family/give them POA/make them beneficiaries?


ETA:
I'd be very careful about getting the SS involved (I use those initials deliberately). You really don't want a Safeguarding Order slapped on; it will bring misery to all.

Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 11th February 14:27

zedstar

1,735 posts

175 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
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I think the 'it's her money and she can do what she likes, stop being greedy' may be the response you get from the local SS dept, if you want them to take it seriously then you need to get this other family whose relative was his last 'friend' to come in and support you in this. I think any enquiry would be taken a lot more seriously if you can prove a history of this.

I think its important that you get an idea of what is going on and the methodology behind it. For all you know your Aunt (in law?) may dislike your MIL and therefore this may be what she actually wants. For all anyone knows the new friend may be telling her all day how he's got debts and could really do with some help, he may be making sure to keep some distance between the family to make it look as if he cares more.

The fact that he is taking steps to keep her away from her family is very suspicious to me and certainly not the actions of someone who's just a friend.


irocfan

Original Poster:

40,156 posts

189 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
thanks for the responses all - I'll put them to Mrs Iroc when she gets in. Like I said taken at face value my initial opinion was SFW - it's her estate to dispose of as she sees fit. What is concerning the family is the 'hold' he seems to be applying - that and the fact that my wife's aunt is number 3 (that's always assuming there weren't others).

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Bering in mind the experience of someone I know who let a similar situation develop and some years later on found out there was £80,000 missing - I'd want to check her finances somehow. You may think Freddy would never take your aunt down to the cashpoint and get her to take thousands out - but it can and does and did happen. You won't get it back so check the door is shut now.

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
PS Given that this is the Finance forum, is Freddy an IFA?

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
If she's of sound mind then not much. It's her money and she can do what she wants with it. If he's got POA then she must have signed it and it would have been though a solicitor
A Power of Attorney (Enduring/lasting/health/property/finance or whatever) does not have to be taken out through a solicitor. It does, however, have to be registered - but the current cost for that is only £110 (so no big deterrent).

Wacky Racer

38,099 posts

246 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
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Where there's a will there's a relative conman.

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
A Power of Attorney (Enduring/lasting/health/property/finance or whatever) does not have to be taken out through a solicitor. It does, however, have to be registered - but the current cost for that is only £110 (so no big deterrent).
That's rather worrying. It means any bandit can dupe someone into signing the inital document, then go and register it and clean out their accounts. Surely there are checks somewhere...?

irocfan

Original Poster:

40,156 posts

189 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
Bering in mind the experience of someone I know who let a similar situation develop and some years later on found out there was £80,000 missing - I'd want to check her finances somehow. You may think Freddy would never take your aunt down to the cashpoint and get her to take thousands out - but it can and does and did happen. You won't get it back so check the door is shut now.
wow! that's not good to hear (though obviously we are all aware that stuff like this happens). Apparently he has told various family members that he is her carer (I'm assuming un-official given his age, or does age not count with something like this?) "she asks to go to xyz and I take her, she wants xyz and we go and get it"

To the best of my knowledge he is 'just a friend' rather than an IFA. Interestingly enough apparently the family of last person he cared for tried to contest the will in court but were unsuccessful (I don't know the reason why and to be fair this is just scuttlebutt) and the amount involved was comparatively small.

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
irocfan said:
Apparently he has told various family members that he is her carer (I'm assuming un-official given his age, or does age not count with something like this?)
If he's physically able then he could quite easily be her carer, and also be paid a reasonable sum for it (eg £15-20ph).

irocfan said:
"she asks to go to xyz and I take her, she wants xyz and we go and get it"
It may be innocent, but that gets the amber warning light flashing to me.

irocfan said:
To the best of my knowledge he is 'just a friend' rather than an IFA. Interestingly enough apparently the family of last person he cared for tried to contest the will in court but were unsuccessful (I don't know the reason why and to be fair this is just scuttlebutt) and the amount involved was comparatively small.
My IFA comment was a joke, BUT if he has form in this area the amber light just went red. Can you find out more? Somehow you have to take back control.

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
That's rather worrying. It means any bandit can dupe someone into signing the inital document, then go and register it and clean out their accounts. Surely there are checks somewhere...?
Yes, quite a few checks along the way - but the point being corrected was that a solicitor does not *have* to be involved. The form filling, and the subsequent registration, can be time consuming and involve a number of double checks. It is possible to download what is required from the government website.

Skyedriver

17,667 posts

281 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
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Was told of one by a friend the other day--
An old lady friend of hers who she has attended to when needed but expects nothing from her has discovered that her late husbands family from a previous marriage took her to a solicitor and got her to sign a power of attourney in their favour.
My friend only found out when the old lady showed her the papers and asked her "what is this that I have signed"

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
POA is often a route into murky water. I've seen statistics suggesting that a third of all POAs get abused by the attorney which, if correct, is most alarming.

However, if Auntie is "of sound mind" she can cancel the POA any time she likes so all you need to do is persuade her that Freddie is a wrong 'un....

irocfan

Original Poster:

40,156 posts

189 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Well more things are coming to light some of which (as a layman) give me cause for concern.

Apparently the solicitors who have re-done the will told her not to speak to the family about it.
She also apparently had a mental faculties test the day before the will was signed (AIUI this isn't a 'one off' test but takes place over a number of weeks months?).
Her niece went down on Wednesday and was prevented from seeing her ("she doesn't want to see you") & he's virtually moved in. In other words there is no way to see her with Freddy around....
We've contacted several parties to start the ball rolling but we really need to get a wiggle on since another concern is that if he knows he's being left everything & he is a wrong 'Un then what incentive is there for him to continue treating her well (or am I guilty of watching too many films)?

Simpo Two

85,150 posts

264 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Freddy and/or his advisers are smart. They know the Will is likely to be contested so have had the mental faculties test done to shut that particular loophole. The solicitor also knows it's contentious, hence his advice not to speak to the family. Remember that the solicitor is - or should be - acting for the lady, NOT the family or anyone else.

How did you find out about the mental test?

irocfan

Original Poster:

40,156 posts

189 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
Freddy and/or his advisers are smart. They know the Will is likely to be contested so have had the mental faculties test done to shut that particular loophole. The solicitor also knows it's contentious, hence his advice not to speak to the family. Remember that the solicitor is - or should be - acting for the lady, NOT the family or anyone else.

How did you find out about the mental test?
again this is all hearsay - but apparently one of Mrs Iroc's cousins found this out (how I don't know). My MiL spoke to Freddy the other day and he told her that "well if I'd married her you couldn't do anything about it".

That being said a few other inquiries are being made, in this case, with people who deal with this sort of thing on a regular basis and the advice was un-equivocally - this should be a police matter, which was quite surprising that they were so forthright. That being said that is now for the family to decide. As I said to the MiL - God forbid that the sister dies in the next 6 months she and Mrs Iroc's cousins will always be wondering if it was neglect or genuine.... messy old business.

Will keep people posted - thanks for the postings so far, if there are any more thoughts on this please post away wink

Skyedriver

17,667 posts

281 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Sorry to keep hijacking but in my friends case, she went to see the solicitor who told her in no uncertain terms "she's signed it and that's that"

Police matter you say in the OPs post. Maybe an option here too.

Good luck