C63 Estate v 535D Touring
Discussion
Ares said:
I don't however see how, in identical cars with identical power, the fuel makes for a dramatic difference when both are mated to an 8sp ZF autobox!
I understand you don't get it, and if you don't then that is fine. But many do think that aural pleasure and extra rev range is worth it. Just being able to take the twisties and the car staying in 3rd from 30-75mph through the bends rather than it swapping cogs halfway makes a huge difference.
The differences are subtle with an auto 'box, but they are still there.
abarber said:
Ares said:
Intrigued as to how it "left you cold" compared to "really enjoying the drive" of 2 identical cars with a different fuels?
If there was a manual gearbox in there, I'd agree. But when the ZF box is seemless in it's shifts (although moreso in the diesel), I'm struggling to see how two identical cars can be deemed SO different?
So despite a completely different engine, power delivery, gearing, rev range, sound, suspension etc etc, they are identical If there was a manual gearbox in there, I'd agree. But when the ZF box is seemless in it's shifts (although moreso in the diesel), I'm struggling to see how two identical cars can be deemed SO different?
To me and many others on PH, the engine is at the heart of the car and there is much pleasure to be had listening to a lovely sounding engine and winding it out to 7k. BMW are renowned for their sonorous sixes and the N55 is one of the best.
The 535d has an excellent diesel engine by all accounts, but I got zero pleasure out of driving or listening to it.
...or are you saying that an exciting car without it's engine noise is by default dull?
gizlaroc said:
I understand you don't get it, and if you don't then that is fine. But many do think that aural pleasure and extra rev range is worth it.
Just being able to take the twisties and the car staying in 3rd from 30-75mph through the bends rather than it swapping cogs halfway makes a huge difference.
The differences are subtle with an auto 'box, but they are still there.
Agreed. If you can't feel the difference, great for you.Just being able to take the twisties and the car staying in 3rd from 30-75mph through the bends rather than it swapping cogs halfway makes a huge difference.
The differences are subtle with an auto 'box, but they are still there.
The adaptive drive and non m sport suspension also helped on the 535i I drove. I'm not a fan of the ride on M Sport F10s, or at least on the 535d. The ride feels like it's been engineered to feel 'sporty', yet wasn't a particularly agile handler.
Anyway, enough of this one. OP, great look forward to your comments on the C63. You'll love it
gizlaroc said:
Ares said:
I don't however see how, in identical cars with identical power, the fuel makes for a dramatic difference when both are mated to an 8sp ZF autobox!
I understand you don't get it, and if you don't then that is fine. But many do think that aural pleasure and extra rev range is worth it. Just being able to take the twisties and the car staying in 3rd from 30-75mph through the bends rather than it swapping cogs halfway makes a huge difference.
The differences are subtle with an auto 'box, but they are still there.
If my car sounded like an AMG, it wouldn't make the car demonstrably more exciting.
abarber said:
Agreed. If you can't feel the difference, great for you.
The adaptive drive and non m sport suspension also helped on the 535i I drove. I'm not a fan of the ride on M Sport F10s, or at least on the 535d. The ride feels like it's been engineered to feel 'sporty', yet wasn't a particularly agile handler.
Anyway, enough of this one. OP, great look forward to your comments on the C63. You'll love it
That makes a lot more sense. Adaptive Drive and the Different suspension will have made a big difference to the car. I've had AC Schnitzer springs put on mine and that alone makes a huge difference to how the car feels and has made it feel more exciting to drive (for an 1800kg lump). The different between Adaptive and Non-Adaptive is hugely noticeable too. The adaptive drive and non m sport suspension also helped on the 535i I drove. I'm not a fan of the ride on M Sport F10s, or at least on the 535d. The ride feels like it's been engineered to feel 'sporty', yet wasn't a particularly agile handler.
Anyway, enough of this one. OP, great look forward to your comments on the C63. You'll love it
Ares said:
I do get that. But does aural pleasure take a car from exciting to dull? I'd say there was a lot more to it.
If my car sounded like an AMG, it wouldn't make the car demonstrably more exciting.
For me personally, the sound isn't the most important part, it's the way the power is delivered. A diesel generally gives you a big slug of low down torque, then runs out of puff. A petrol engine is less torquey low down, but then really chases the higher revs, developing ever more torque and becoming more exciting. For me, the nature of a petrol engine means I'll always enjoy driving one vastly more. To be honest, with the new generation of turbo petrol engines, the difference is less stark, but it's still there.If my car sounded like an AMG, it wouldn't make the car demonstrably more exciting.
Personally, I prefer a NA petrol that feels almost gutless at bottom end but loves to rev. I don't really want "easily accessible" performance in the way people use the phrase these days. I love cars because I actually enjoy driving, not because I want to just get it out of the way quickly with minimum effort.
Andshill7 said:
I know it will cost more in fuel, I tend to do around 10k a year but 2.5k of those comes from driving to France in the summer laden with roofbox etc.
Just imagine setting off from the tolls. Every toll from Calais to the Med. The joy of the V8 will never wear off.As for the arguments about range I really don't get it. If you can kill 300 miles/4hours in one do that's plenty. When I've got my family everyone is happy to stop now and again and go to the loo/get a snack/grab a coffee.
Then you get to give it the beans down the slip road again......
hufggfg said:
For me personally, the sound isn't the most important part, it's the way the power is delivered. A diesel generally gives you a big slug of low down torque, then runs out of puff. A petrol engine is less torquey low down, but then really chases the higher revs, developing ever more torque and becoming more exciting. For me, the nature of a petrol engine means I'll always enjoy driving one vastly more. To be honest, with the new generation of turbo petrol engines, the difference is less stark, but it's still there.
Personally, I prefer a NA petrol that feels almost gutless at bottom end but loves to rev. I don't really want "easily accessible" performance in the way people use the phrase these days. I love cars because I actually enjoy driving, not because I want to just get it out of the way quickly with minimum effort.
Absolutely!! Personally, I prefer a NA petrol that feels almost gutless at bottom end but loves to rev. I don't really want "easily accessible" performance in the way people use the phrase these days. I love cars because I actually enjoy driving, not because I want to just get it out of the way quickly with minimum effort.
This shows that there is no difference between them!
I was lent a 270hp 330i when I had my 335i, and have to say it was even more fun than the 335i. You had to work it a bit, hence swapping back to an M3 again.
gizlaroc said:
I was lent a 270hp 330i when I had my 335i, and have to say it was even more fun than the 335i. You had to work it a bit, hence swapping back to an M3 again.
Interesting to hear, doesn't surprise me at all. I have a 135i and while its perfectly fast, it sure is dull.In my opinion, the best power & torque graphs are both pretty much a line from bottom left to top right.
InductionRoar said:
Monkeylegend said:
Get the Merc, put a 350CDi badge on the back, the wife will never know.
Well mine wouldn't.
Is she hard of hearing? Well mine wouldn't.
hufggfg said:
gizlaroc said:
I was lent a 270hp 330i when I had my 335i, and have to say it was even more fun than the 335i. You had to work it a bit, hence swapping back to an M3 again.
Interesting to hear, doesn't surprise me at all. I have a 135i and while its perfectly fast, it sure is dull.In my opinion, the best power & torque graphs are both pretty much a line from bottom left to top right.
k-ink said:
Soov535 said:
my RS4 had new front pads and discs and it was £2k.
Every time I start thinking about a performance barge these quotes keep me in check! Check that they are needed though, it's very common for dealers to try and charge to replace disks at aren't even half worn! My local Merc dealer tried this scam at the last service. B'stards!
Edited by abarber on Saturday 13th February 16:11
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