Tesla Model 3 revealed

[Durzel]

It seems strange that people can get so partisan over ICE vs EV, as if they are personally offended by it all. It reminds me somewhat of console wars - fanboys attacking each other personally because someone else owns a competing product, when the companies themselves who make them are happy to just get on with their business in the background.

I think we're fortunate Tesla exists and is doing what it does, if nothing else but to motivate other manufacturers. You don't have to be their biggest fan (why I don't know, they seem to be inoffensive) to acknowledge that.

[Krikkit]

Amateurish said:

Krikkit said:

An aside... But is the Bolt actually coming to Europe?

IMO the Model 3 is a bit of a step-change because it *might* give an affordable, all-electric real-world 200+ mile range. If it does I'd want one without question.

Musk says it will have better range than the Bolt (238 miles EPA). As for affordable - probably not so much. They just deleted the S60 from the line-up, so the cheapest Model S is now £70k.

Well even pessimistically the Model 3 will be £20-25k less than the S, which opens up a whole different market.

[Buster73]

simonrockman said:

Look at the money. Teslas are £60k plus, and the price point has drifted up. In this sector they are a big player.

Had a road test of a Tesla last year , loved it enough to seriously think about leasing one , then I did the maths and stayed with my 5 series Company car.

Top end cars are over £90k otr.

Not value for money in any shape or form and certainly too expensive to finance out of taxed income to avoid paying co car bik tax.

[Tuna]

98elise said:

They have the advantage that electric drivetrains are massively more simple and reliable than an ICE drivetrain. ICE cars are getting more complicated...

On our 190,000 mile car, the engine wasn't the problem. It was the air conditioning, locks, suspension, brakes, seals around windows, catches and all the other bits and pieces that EVs also have.

[jamoor]

Tuna said:

On our 190,000 mile car, the engine wasn't the problem. It was the air conditioning, locks, suspension, brakes, seals around windows, catches and all the other bits and pieces that EVs also have.

You've probbably done around 16 services at £200 each roughly, which is around £3000 + the time etc involved in it. If it's the skoda you'd have timing belts too.
The electric car needs none of that.

[simonrockman]

98elise said:

I'd disagree. These are the current BEV cars you can buy, or order:
Mitsubishi i-MiEV
Peugeot iOn
Citroën C-ZERO
Nissan Leaf
Chevrolet Volt
Vahuhall/Opel Ampera
Smart electric drive
Volvo C30 DRIVe Electric
Ford Focus Electric
Renault Fluence Z.E.
Tesla Model S
Renault Zoe
Chevrolet Spark EV
Fiat 500e
Volkswagen e-Up!
BMW i3
BMW Brilliance Zinoro 1E (China only)
Kia Soul EV
Volkswagen e-Golf
Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive
Tesla Model X
Hyundai Ioniq Electric
Chevrolet Volt
Tesla Model 3

I've ordered a Tesla because they are an electric car company, not a ICE car company tentatively dipping their toe in the water. 400,000 consumers have placed orders for the Model 3, how many have placed orders for the other cars?

I also think the average consumer is not going to buy a more expensive version of an ICE model. If mainstream companies want to succeed in the EV market then they need to build an EV brand that appears to be the future.

I've driven six cars in that list plus the Twizy, Tesla Roadster and i8. I've not driven the model X although a friend has one, loves it and says it's better than the S he had before.


The thing about electric cars is that they are all crap, except the Tesla S/X and the i8. The Tesla is amazing, the i8 OK. The other's are deeply disappointing. Especially the Leaf which I've driven for extended periods several times. They are all the-car-as-a-utility there is no sense of fun. I felt particularly let down by the Twizy which looks as though it could be go-karty but turns out to be embarrassing. The thing about the e-VWs is that you come away thinking "why would you" they are not as good and a lot more expensive than the petrol versions. It's not just the initial cost, the depreciation is dreadful. The Tesla Roadster is even worse, it's quite fun but not as much as an Elise which is a third of the price.

There is something about electric cars which exudes an embarrassment about being a car. Even in Bob Lutz's "the car guy versus the bean counters" where he's full of understanding the emotions behind a car, when he starts talking about the Bolt he goes all spreadsheet.

I've ordered a Model 3, but the argument between ICE and electric is much more nuanced than the Animal Farm type arguments presented here.

Edited by simonrockman on Thursday 30th March 09:00

[Tuna]

jamoor said:

Tuna said:

On our 190,000 mile car, the engine wasn't the problem. It was the air conditioning, locks, suspension, brakes, seals around windows, catches and all the other bits and pieces that EVs also have.

You've probbably done around 16 services at £200 each roughly, which is around £3000 + the time etc involved in it. If it's the skoda you'd have timing belts too.
The electric car needs none of that.

Yet Tesla charge $2400 for their four year maintenance plan. I'm sure that's overpriced, but there's some special man maths going on to claim that an EV needs no servicing - and some of the items are non-trivial to fix. And the point I was making is that Tesla as a company are inexperienced at mass producing a car that will survive all the usual wear and tear of a full lifespan. The depreciation of their models suggests they age just the same as an ICE model.

[Plug Life]

Tuna said:

Unless Tesla can break the laws of physics their cars are always going to be a more expensive version of an ICE model until battery technology makes a step change. Changing the power plant doesn't give your car any magic powers, and as soon as people realise that, they'll see EV vs ICE as about as exciting as Petrol vs Diesel. Think about it, when diesel became a thing in the 90's, you could suddenly buy a clean, efficient car that did half as many miles again as the petrol equivalent on the same cost of fuel.

Unless now we know (except really thick Neanderthals) that "clean" diesel was bullst and electric drive has the "magic power" of zero local emissions of carcinogens and minimal noise pollution. Obviously selfish plonkers won't see this exciting but that tells more about their mental capacity than about EVs.

[WestyCarl]

Tuna said:

Yet Tesla charge $2400 for their four year maintenance plan. I'm sure that's overpriced, but there's some special man maths going on to claim that an EV needs no servicing - and some of the items are non-trivial to fix. And the point I was making is that Tesla as a company are inexperienced at mass producing a car that will survive all the usual wear and tear of a full lifespan. The depreciation of their models suggests they age just the same as an ICE model.

I guess it depends what you mean by experience. Most of the senior guys at Tesla come from the Auto Industry so have plenty of experience.

[kambites]

Tuna said:

but there's some special man maths going on to claim that an EV needs no servicing

That depends on exactly what you mean. I believe the oft-misquoted statement from Tesla is that the car doesn't need servicing to retain the warranty. Obviously it's going to need routine maintenance on non-drivetrain components, even if it's only tyres, brakes, wipers, bulbs, etc.

Whether Tesla have the experience to produce a car that will last, well I suppose that remains to be seen but one could easily argue that it's actually getting less important in the modern automotive market as cars become viewed more and more as consumable items.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 30th March 08:44

[DonkeyApple]

jamoor said:

You've probbably done around 16 services at £200 each roughly, which is around £3000 + the time etc involved in it. If it's the skoda you'd have timing belts too.
The electric car needs none of that.

The mechanical simplicity is definitely one of the huge advantages. You can see these brilliantly when BMW state you must bring your i3 back to have the dust caps realigned or everyone will die.

Being able to charge from home is a great convenience. The silence is a huge benefit to absolutely everyone as is obviously the removal of local air pollution.

Solid ranges above 200 miles clearly fits almost everyone's day to day needs.

But the price of the batteries is the real killer that will keep this section of the market only workable for premium products and the Tesla isn't actually a premium product. It's just the only product. Their problem is that once the likes of Jaguar, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes start delivering premium EVs the Tesla will be their 'Mondeo' and will struggle to maintain the pricing premium it needs.

American manufacturers already really struggle to do 'premium' and it would be a big ask for them to do so let alone a fledgling producer who only just built their 100,000th car after nearly a decade of sales. It's very hard to see Tesla actually stand up in the market once the main premium manufacturers arrive.

[Guvernator]

simonrockman said:

I've driven six cars in that list plus the Twizy, Tesla Roadster and i8. I've not driven the model X although a friend has one, loves it and says it's better than the S he had before.


The thing about electric cars is that they are all crap, except the Tesla S/X and the i8. The Tesla is amazing, the i8 OK. The other's are deeply disappointing. Especially the Leaf which I've driven for extended periods several times. They are all the-car-as-a-utility there is no sense of fun. I felt particularly let down by the Twizy which looks as though it could be go-karty but turns out to be embarrassing. The thing about the e-VWs is that you come away thinking "why would you" they are not as good and a lot more expensive than the petrol versions. It's not just the initial cost, the depreciation is dreadful. The Tesla Roadster is even worse, it's quite fun but not as much as an Elise which is a third of the price.

There is something about electric cars which exudes an embarrassment about being a car. Even in Bob Lutz's "the car guy versus the bean counters" where he's full of understanding the emotions behind a car, when he starts talking about the Bolt he goes all spreadsheet.

I've ordered a Model 3, but the argument between ICE and electric is much more nuanced than the Animal Farm type arguments presented here.

Edited by simonrockman on Thursday 30th March 09:00

Yep I'd agree with all of that. The list looks quite long, until you take a look at it and realise 95% of them are rubbish and the designs, oh dear, I'd be embarrassed to drive most of them tbh.

I really have no idea why manufacturers feel the need to make all their EV cars "quirky", almost as if they are embarrassed of them so they design them to not really look like cars but something that appeals to sandal wearing lentil eaters. Cars like this will not break EV's into the mainstream . The first manufacturer to make a decent mid sized saloon or SUV EV to rival Tesla but at a lower price point will clean up IMO.

[Zoon]

Tuna said:

Yet Tesla charge $2400 for their four year maintenance plan.

That's more expensive than Land Rover charge for the 5 year plan on the ICE Evoque.

[jamoor]

Tuna said:

Yet Tesla charge $2400 for their four year maintenance plan. I'm sure that's overpriced, but there's some special man maths going on to claim that an EV needs no servicing - and some of the items are non-trivial to fix. And the point I was making is that Tesla as a company are inexperienced at mass producing a car that will survive all the usual wear and tear of a full lifespan. The depreciation of their models suggests they age just the same as an ICE model.

I'd say the depreciation is due to uncertainty due to it being a new company.

The 2400 maintanance plan is expensive, and you can get that cheaper by not doing any servicing.

If you don't service an ICE car you will have a bad time.

[J8 SVG]

First car has driven off the production line - when will we see the first cars in the UK?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/9/15943152/tesla-m...

[Agent XXX]

Was down at my folks at the weekend and one of their neighbours has one. I think it's rather smart.

Prefer the Model S but each to their own.

Ok, maybe it wasn't this model. What's the MPV looking one???

Edited by Agent XXX on Monday 10th July 14:35

[FurtiveFreddy]

Agent XXX said:

Was down at my folks at the weekend and one of their neighbours has one. I think it's rather smart.

Prefer the Model S but each to their own.

Ok, maybe it wasn't this model. What's the MPV looking one???

Edited by Agent XXX on Monday 10th July 14:35

X As in Agent XXX

You won't see a Model 3 in the UK for some months yet...

[scenario8]

With the production roll out commencing I'd expected this thread to have jumped another 118 pages (of silliness) by the time I logged in tonight. Have all the antagonists given up on each other?

[p1stonhead]

scenario8 said:

With the production roll out commencing I'd expected this thread to have jumped another 118 pages (of silliness) by the time I logged in tonight. Have all the antagonists given up on each other?

Nah there is a 'who is getting a Model 3' thread too.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[tankplanker]

Other than the base battery/electric motor, have Tesla announced which upgraded engine/electric motor combos the Model 3 will be getting?