RE: Porsche 718 Cayman - official
Discussion
unpc said:
Every 6 cylinder engine of any configuration I've had has been good or fantastic. I'm struggling to think of any 4 cylinder engines I've had or driven that rate anything better than good and most were way worse than that.
You must have experienced an odd selection of both. Every US built V6 I've experienced has been complete s
t, as were various European Ford efforts. In contrast almost every Italian 4 pot - Alfa (I4 & F4), Fiat/Lancia were lovely, as were I4s by BMW, Rover, Lotus, Honda & Porsche.SS7
Vitorio said:
Kidding aside, isnt the V6 at least properly balanced, like a boxer, V12 and i6 engine? A V8 has some inherent unbalancedness.
Whilst people like to use the term "perfectly balanced", no piston engine is actually perfectly balanced in all planes. The balance of a V6 depends on its V angle and crank design but no V6 is as fundamentally well balanced as a boxer or straight 6. Wikipedia has an interesting (if rather convoluted) article on engine balance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 26th April 10:52
shoestring7 said:
You must have experienced an odd selection of both. Every US built V6 I've experienced has been complete st, as were various European Ford efforts. In contrast almost every Italian 4 pot - Alfa (I4 & F4), Fiat/Lancia were lovely, as were I4s by BMW, Rover, Lotus, Honda & Porsche.
SS7
+1 on italian 4 pots, the F4 in my old 33 was a really nice engine, and the 1.6TS in my 147 is nice as wellt, as were various European Ford efforts. In contrast almost every Italian 4 pot - Alfa (I4 & F4), Fiat/Lancia were lovely, as were I4s by BMW, Rover, Lotus, Honda & Porsche.SS7
kambites said:
Whilst people like to use the term "perfectly balanced", no piston engine is actually perfectly balanced in all planes. The balance of a V6 depends on its V angle and crank design but no V6 is as fundamentally well balanced as a boxer or straight 6.
Ah, fair point, that is what i get for trusting wikipedia outright (and potentially misremembering)Tuna said:
To be fair to DonkeyApple, his basic point is reasonable. Anyone who flounces away from the Porsche on the grounds that it's got the wrong number of cylinders is hardly going to rush to their local Lotus dealer. If some arbitrary criteria is enough to put them off the Cayman, the Evora is not going to be 'specialist' enough to appease them - and they're unlikely to get as far as a test drive to discover otherwise.
Yes, the basic point is almost certainly true for the huge majority of potential buyers who would dismiss the four-pot on the basis of number of cylinders.Edited by kambites on Tuesday 26th April 10:55
I loved both but the engine in my S2000 FAR outclasses that I had in my V6 Brera...talking about just the engine, not the on-road feel of the car as a whole.
I also loved the 16v 1.6 in the CRX I had, the vtec 1.6 in another CRX. I enjoyed the boxer 4 in the Impreza, and in for contrast I have a lot of time for the big ol' 4cylinder in my 944 turbo.
What does this prove?
It proves I need to own more 6 and 8 cylinder cars!
If the car is heavy, I say give it some FI thrust
If the car is light let it sing via NA
Top trump cylinder counting is for snobs IMO...that's not to say a V12 isn't glorious, I just think with an open mind a well tuned 4 can more than hold it's own.
I also loved the 16v 1.6 in the CRX I had, the vtec 1.6 in another CRX. I enjoyed the boxer 4 in the Impreza, and in for contrast I have a lot of time for the big ol' 4cylinder in my 944 turbo.
What does this prove?
It proves I need to own more 6 and 8 cylinder cars!
If the car is heavy, I say give it some FI thrust
If the car is light let it sing via NA
Top trump cylinder counting is for snobs IMO...that's not to say a V12 isn't glorious, I just think with an open mind a well tuned 4 can more than hold it's own.
DonkeyApple said:
Artey said:
That stty Toyota engine is a 6 pot my boy. Carry on rambling, please.
Yup. A V6. tty Toyota engine is a 6 pot my boy. Carry on rambling, please.Now pay attention. If a chap specifically rejects a Porsche on the grounds that it is a 4 pot then as an engine snob he is obviously not going to then tolerate a v6 is he.
It is not difficult. A V6 is a poor mans V8. It is only ever built as a cheap fix never as an ultimate engineering solution. They are the 'luxury' engine for bottom end brands or the bottom end engine for luxury brands.
So, if someone has an issue with a 4 pot then they are obviously going to have the same problem with a V6.
I wouldn't entertain the new Cayman and the real deal breaker has to be the engine. It's not because I am an engine snob, it is because of the way that particular 4 pot turbo alters the dynamic of this particular car (yes I have driven a 718 Boxster) If it was a 4 pot like the E30 M3 I would have no problems what so ever. Well apart from still missing that Porsche sound.
For a start it robs the 718's of one of the most characterful and fabulous engine notes in the business but it also denies the car a real top end which has always been a trait of good Porsches (or any good car for that matter). It leaves you with no incentive to hunt for the right bit of road to stretch the engines legs or work the gearbox because it just delivers an enormous lump of torque on demand whatever gear, whatever speed whilst making a flatulent noise. This completely defeats the object of buying a drivers car in my opinion. Again the number of cylinders does not come into it, it is the driving characteristic and the noise.
I would love an Exige V6. I think it makes a great noise, it has mid range for lazy days but also a top end worth exploring, oh and the chassis is one of the best out there. I would also love my Clio Trophy or DC2 Integra back. 4 cylinder maybe but what an pair of engines.
On a separate note, clearly people seem to think the 6 cylinder Caymans and Boxsters lack torque and there's some unbelievable crap spoken about the lack of midrange and the ability of the new car to just pull you along effortlessly (as if the old ones didn't) but has anyone ever driven a 987.2 or 981 Cayman S? Even with its leggy gearing it has more mid range than it knows what to do with. They pull 6th gear from as little as 25mph with no complaints and you can perform a perfectly quick overtake from the normal 43mph on a national limit stretch in 6th gear no problems. Not that you would but it will do it easily.
I read more and more car reviews with motoring journalists commenting how a lot of new performance cars are just too quick to exercise on the road, yet car companies seem to be in the never ending pursuit for "effortless speed". Stop making cars effortless and start making them exciting again. If I want effortless I will buy a 335d Xdrive and have done! It would still make a nicer noise than a 718.
Porsche know how to build excellent sportscars by and large and sell them by the bucket load even given how much theirs cost. So the litmus test is this:
Given the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
Given the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
bosshog said:
All this talk of 4 pot vs 6 pot. Personally I don't give a sh*t how many pots it has!. All I care about is how is sounds (and responds).
Engine configuration is what defines sound and characteristic so if you care about them the 4 vs 6 cylinder discussion is what you should give a st about. 
Artey said:
Engine configuration is what defines sound and characteristic so if you care about them the 4 vs 6 cylinder discussion is what you should give a st about.
It's a factor - but compare the Evora 400 sound to a Camry ('same' engine) and tell me that the sound and character can't be engineered.t about. Tuna said:
It's a factor - but compare the Evora 400 sound to a Camry ('same' engine) and tell me that the sound and character can't be engineered.
As the saying goes you can't polish a turd and in the world of combustion engines inline 4 is a turd that can't be polished. Whereas something like a V6 can be civilised and quiet like in Camry or angry and loud like in Evora 400. Similar to big V8's in e.g. Mercs, or Yamaha V8's.Artey said:
As the saying goes you can't polish a turd and in the world of combustion engines inline 4 is a turd that can't be polished.
Ill disagree with that, it might never be as smooth as a v6/i6, but there is quite a bandwidth to how an i4 can behave, and a f4 is a whole nother chapter.Vitorio said:
Artey said:
As the saying goes you can't polish a turd and in the world of combustion engines inline 4 is a turd that can't be polished.
Ill disagree with that, it might never be as smooth as a v6/i6, but there is quite a bandwidth to how an i4 can behave, and a f4 is a whole nother chapter.Artey said:
Vitorio said:
Ill disagree with that, it might never be as smooth as a v6/i6, but there is quite a bandwidth to how an i4 can behave, and a f4 is a whole nother chapter.
I'm yet to come across a nice sounding 4 cylinder. Volume doesn't equal quality.It's engineering and audio tuning...as ably demonstrated by that Alfa, as much to do with the intake and exhaust than anything else. Subjective opinion accepted, to cast aside an engine noise on the basis of it's cylinder count is lame.
zebra said:
DonkeyApple said:
Play the ball, not the man.
By the way, it's not the engine of choice in F1. It's the engine that manufacturers wanted to promote on grounds of marketing their road cars. It's not what an enthusiast or an engineer would have chosen.
Why do they wish to promote them then?By the way, it's not the engine of choice in F1. It's the engine that manufacturers wanted to promote on grounds of marketing their road cars. It's not what an enthusiast or an engineer would have chosen.
DonkeyApple said:
But back to the point, we are discussing the concept of snobbery making someone not buy this Porsche. That same person isn't going to then rush to buy a V6 are they? Especially not one from Toyota or in a far less aspirational brand as Lotus.
Congratulations on looking at my car history but that is a pretty lame attempt at trolling. Stop being a silly old woman and try reading the point that I was making and desist from being abusive.
Vitorio said:
DonkeyApple said:
It is not difficult. A V6 is a poor mans V8. It is only ever built as a cheap fix never as an ultimate engineering solution. They are the 'luxury' engine for bottom end brands or the bottom end engine for luxury brands.
Doesnt the same apply to a V8? It is a bit of a pleb engine when you could have (should, really) a V12 in a proper luxury car.Kidding aside, isnt the V6 at least properly balanced, like a boxer, V12 and i6 engine? A V8 has some inherent unbalancedness.
Either way, i think this all is rather silly, sure i'd like a 'special' engine, but a properly boosted/piped 4 cilinder boxer might even be rarer these days on the road then a V6, so as long as the power and noise are there.... do you really care?
But the point that I am making was in response to a post on how someone who does care enough to not buy a Porsche on this basis is not very likely to then go and buy a Lotus because they will have the same issue.
In the past the same would have been true of the V8, as you say. What that tends to show is that with time such views mellow and often to the point of insignificance. Manufacturers are pouring money into promoting V6 units as they've been forced to downsize their V8s and soon few will remember that they used to be the accountants engine choice not the engineers and I am quite confident that within a few years people will think nothing of 4 pot entry Porsches.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 26th April 14:45
DonkeyApple said:
Do I care? No.
But the point that I am making was in response to a post on how someone who does care enough to not buy a Porsche on this basis is not very likely to then go and buy a Lotus because they will have the same issue.
get your point DA... but reading through the majority of the thread this is more about FI vs NA (again)But the point that I am making was in response to a post on how someone who does care enough to not buy a Porsche on this basis is not very likely to then go and buy a Lotus because they will have the same issue.
In that regards the Lotus will hold appeal to those who are enthusiasts and aren't badge snobs, purely on the basis of the driving experience and not the stats, and badge engineering of any given component or collection of components...
Those that pass by the new 718 on the basis it's a 4 cylinder will look for 6 or 8
Those that pass on the new 718 on the basis it's a little turbo will look for NA
Those who crave a Porsche and nothing else will do...will buy a Porsche.
I'm surprised the 4C hasn't been mentioned.... or the TTRS
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