RE: Porsche 718 Cayman - official
Discussion
Quickmoose said:
get your point DA... but reading through the majority of the thread this is more about FI vs NA (again)
In that regards the Lotus will hold appeal to those who are enthusiasts and aren't badge snobs, purely on the basis of the driving experience and not the stats, and badge engineering of any given component or collection of components...
Those that pass by the new 718 on the basis it's a 4 cylinder will look for 6 or 8
Those that pass on the new 718 on the basis it's a little turbo will look for NA
Those who crave a Porsche and nothing else will do...will buy a Porsche.
I'm surprised the 4C hasn't been mentioned.... or the TTRS
Yup. I agree. And I think Porsche know that an upside to doing this is that it will push more people into taking the leap for a 911 and if they leave the brand altogether then the odds of them remaining within the 'Group' is very high.In that regards the Lotus will hold appeal to those who are enthusiasts and aren't badge snobs, purely on the basis of the driving experience and not the stats, and badge engineering of any given component or collection of components...
Those that pass by the new 718 on the basis it's a 4 cylinder will look for 6 or 8
Those that pass on the new 718 on the basis it's a little turbo will look for NA
Those who crave a Porsche and nothing else will do...will buy a Porsche.
I'm surprised the 4C hasn't been mentioned.... or the TTRS
I think the trouble with FI, turbos in particular, in 2016 is that their application has more to do with meeting legal regulations and accountancy practices. FI and especially turbos should be enormously exciting and should enhance the whole experience but FI of yesteryear was a party hosted by engineers and lunatics, whereas FI today is a conference hosted by accountants and lawyers.
It's like the Hamptons, I remember when every night there was a party going on, but today, now most of the homes are owned by lawyers and accountants everything closes at 10pm and its like a ghost town. Those f
kers ruin absolutely everything. 
It's not that there is anything wrong with FI its just that anything done by or controlled by accountants and lawyers is massively f
king boring and life sucking. Hence we end up with crap cars that boast of having performance where only a minicab or van driver ever needs it.Vitorio said:
shoestring7 said:
You must have experienced an odd selection of both. Every US built V6 I've experienced has been complete st, as were various European Ford efforts. In contrast almost every Italian 4 pot - Alfa (I4 & F4), Fiat/Lancia were lovely, as were I4s by BMW, Rover, Lotus, Honda & Porsche.
SS7
+1 on italian 4 pots, the F4 in my old 33 was a really nice engine, and the 1.6TS in my 147 is nice as wellt, as were various European Ford efforts. In contrast almost every Italian 4 pot - Alfa (I4 & F4), Fiat/Lancia were lovely, as were I4s by BMW, Rover, Lotus, Honda & Porsche.SS7
kambites said:
Whilst people like to use the term "perfectly balanced", no piston engine is actually perfectly balanced in all planes. The balance of a V6 depends on its V angle and crank design but no V6 is as fundamentally well balanced as a boxer or straight 6.
Ah, fair point, that is what i get for trusting wikipedia outright (and potentially misremembering)SS7
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. I agree. And I think Porsche know that an upside to doing this is that it will push more people into taking the leap for a 911 and if they leave the brand altogether then the odds of them remaining within the 'Group' is very high.
I think the trouble with FI, turbos in particular, in 2016 is that their application has more to do with meeting legal regulations and accountancy practices. FI and especially turbos should be enormously exciting and should enhance the whole experience but FI of yesteryear was a party hosted by engineers and lunatics, whereas FI today is a conference hosted by accountants and lawyers.
It's like the Hamptons, I remember when every night there was a party going on, but today, now most of the homes are owned by lawyers and accountants everything closes at 10pm and its like a ghost town. Those fkers ruin absolutely everything.
It's not that there is anything wrong with FI its just that anything done by or controlled by accountants and lawyers is massively fking boring and life sucking. Hence we end up with crap cars that boast of having performance where only a minicab or van driver ever needs it.
A good point well made.I think the trouble with FI, turbos in particular, in 2016 is that their application has more to do with meeting legal regulations and accountancy practices. FI and especially turbos should be enormously exciting and should enhance the whole experience but FI of yesteryear was a party hosted by engineers and lunatics, whereas FI today is a conference hosted by accountants and lawyers.
It's like the Hamptons, I remember when every night there was a party going on, but today, now most of the homes are owned by lawyers and accountants everything closes at 10pm and its like a ghost town. Those f
kers ruin absolutely everything. It's not that there is anything wrong with FI its just that anything done by or controlled by accountants and lawyers is massively f
king boring and life sucking. Hence we end up with crap cars that boast of having performance where only a minicab or van driver ever needs it.An engine using turbo(s) where the character trait of the turbo is nullified (lag), the noise then has to be engineered with over-run farts and bangs and/or a f
king made up noises from the speakers?!!... all to reduce the CO2 figures that can and will only be replicated in a lab....If we leave the EU could Lotus and Morgan et al produce cars that do more of what we want??
Quickmoose said:
If we leave the EU could Lotus and Morgan et al produce cars that do more of what we want??
Sadly, if we leave then we would still comply 100% with Eu regs on emissions and eventually fall into line with the planned global regs.The only difference is that if we leave we will have absolutely no say in what these levels are, whereas if we stay we will absolutely no say in what these levels are but we won't have been able to think that we did.
Mario149 said:
Porsche know how to build excellent sportscars by and large and sell them by the bucket load even given how much theirs cost. So the litmus test is this:
Given the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
while I agree porsche know how to build excellent sport cars, they are a business with profits in mind. Porsche wants to push people towards the 911 as that is where the fat is. Porsche already have a F6T in the 991.2 models, so are seriously telling me that Porsche couldn't have found a way to fit them into the 718 to meet the emissions? BullsGiven the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
t. The move to the F4T was done very smartly on the non-iconic model, so that now the 718 well and truly is a poor man's porsche, and anyone wanting a "true" porsche now has to look at the 911 which gives the biggest profit margins. And they will still sell bucket loads of all the other porsche models like macans, cayenne's, 718s...DonkeyApple said:
Yup. I agree. And I think Porsche know that an upside to doing this is that it will push more people into taking the leap for a 911 and if they leave the brand altogether then the odds of them remaining within the 'Group' is very high.
I think the trouble with FI, turbos in particular, in 2016 is that their application has more to do with meeting legal regulations and accountancy practices. FI and especially turbos should be enormously exciting and should enhance the whole experience but FI of yesteryear was a party hosted by engineers and lunatics, whereas FI today is a conference hosted by accountants and lawyers.
It's like the Hamptons, I remember when every night there was a party going on, but today, now most of the homes are owned by lawyers and accountants everything closes at 10pm and its like a ghost town. Those fkers ruin absolutely everything.
It's not that there is anything wrong with FI its just that anything done by or controlled by accountants and lawyers is massively fking boring and life sucking. Hence we end up with crap cars that boast of having performance where only a minicab or van driver ever needs it.
I think the trouble with FI, turbos in particular, in 2016 is that their application has more to do with meeting legal regulations and accountancy practices. FI and especially turbos should be enormously exciting and should enhance the whole experience but FI of yesteryear was a party hosted by engineers and lunatics, whereas FI today is a conference hosted by accountants and lawyers.
It's like the Hamptons, I remember when every night there was a party going on, but today, now most of the homes are owned by lawyers and accountants everything closes at 10pm and its like a ghost town. Those f
kers ruin absolutely everything. It's not that there is anything wrong with FI its just that anything done by or controlled by accountants and lawyers is massively f
king boring and life sucking. Hence we end up with crap cars that boast of having performance where only a minicab or van driver ever needs it.
As a genuine question, do boxer engines exhibit any wear problems unique to the boxer format? Specifically as the pistons are essentially laying on their sides, in/on the bottom half of the cylinders, can this induce wear on one side of the piston / cylinder that the piston is is laying on?
I realize that this is not much different to the weight of the pistons and con rods resting on the big and little end bearings in an upright engine, but these are intended to resist much higher dynamic loads, than just the weight of the components.
Or put simply can / do boxer engines wear out the bottom of the cylinder and lower side of the pistons, more than the upper sides of the cylinder and pistons?
I realize that this is not much different to the weight of the pistons and con rods resting on the big and little end bearings in an upright engine, but these are intended to resist much higher dynamic loads, than just the weight of the components.
Or put simply can / do boxer engines wear out the bottom of the cylinder and lower side of the pistons, more than the upper sides of the cylinder and pistons?
cypriot said:
Mario149 said:
Porsche know how to build excellent sportscars by and large and sell them by the bucket load even given how much theirs cost. So the litmus test is this:
Given the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
while I agree porsche know how to build excellent sport cars, they are a business with profits in mind. Porsche wants to push people towards the 911 as that is where the fat is. Porsche already have a F6T in the 991.2 models, so are seriously telling me that Porsche couldn't have found a way to fit them into the 718 to meet the emissions? BullsGiven the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
t. The move to the F4T was done very smartly on the non-iconic model, so that now the 718 well and truly is a poor man's porsche, and anyone wanting a "true" porsche now has to look at the 911 which gives the biggest profit margins. And they will still sell bucket loads of all the other porsche models like macans, cayenne's, 718s...Combine all that with the chassis, steering and brake improvements all the 991.2 and 718 models have seen and Porsche would be wiping the floor big style. As it is they've had to spend more money than they could have and all most enthusaists/journos are talking about is how the cars are very fast but they miss the NA F6 noise as they either now sound muted (911) or like a Subaru (718).
DonkeyApple said:
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
It is only ever built as a cheap fix never as an ultimate engineering solution.
I think that's rather an over-simplification. Some of the best drivers' cars ever made have been V6s and there's a good reason for that; V6s are small and roughly cuboid making them very easy to package efficiently. A boxer or inline-6 might be better from a balance point of view, but if you have to screw up your weight distribution or fit an inferior suspension system to make it fit, I'd rather have a V6. If I was designing a sports car from the ground up, it'd probably have a (longitudinally mid-mounted) V6; not for cost reasons but because I think it's the best engineering solution.
ETA: But then I'm not the sort of person who would reject the Boxster because it only has four cylinders, so perhaps that reinforces your point rather than refuting it.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 26th April 08:55
Snobbery is snobbery. A V6 has exactly the same problem as a 4 pot. It's the poor man's solution in the eyes of the snob. Ergo, if someone is going to walk away from a Porsche simply because it is missing two cylinders and/or uses forced induction they are catagorically not then going to go and buy a Lotus which is also missing 2 cylinders and has FI.
The point being made is that if someone declines to buy a Porsche based on some kind of snobbery, value perception etc then that individual will not then be walking into a Lotus showroom, even if they can find one.
I'm also sure that VW Group have done the maths and worked out that any customer they do actually lose for such a reason will statistically end up buying one of their other products anyway. Most likely such wild snobbery would mean they'd load up and get a 911 and then start posting on PH about the peasants in their 4 pots.
However you want to look it at there nice engines and i don't think most people look at it the way you say, the issue with the current engines is while they may thump the car down the road very effectively they lack the charisma of the previous units and this an issue generally with 4's they by and large with a few exception don't sound or feel as nice as 6 cylinder + cars
Quickmoose said:
Volume has nowt to do with it.
It's engineering and audio tuning...as ably demonstrated by that Alfa, as much to do with the intake and exhaust than anything else. Subjective opinion accepted, to cast aside an engine noise on the basis of it's cylinder count is lame.
It is subjective and no offense to anyone but that alfa is one can fart away from a riced out civic. Again it's my opinion and I realise it's a bit controversial. It's engineering and audio tuning...as ably demonstrated by that Alfa, as much to do with the intake and exhaust than anything else. Subjective opinion accepted, to cast aside an engine noise on the basis of it's cylinder count is lame.
DonkeyApple said:
What are you going on about? I've no idea what car you drive and nor am I interested. And why do you think they wish to promote them? To sell more.
Stop being a silly old woman and try reading the point that I was making and desist from being abusive.
Wow, agressive and immature.Stop being a silly old woman and try reading the point that I was making and desist from being abusive.
It's not possible to have a discussion with you so I'm out.
Feel free to quote and have the last word though.
zebra said:
DonkeyApple said:
What are you going on about? I've no idea what car you drive and nor am I interested. And why do you think they wish to promote them? To sell more.
Stop being a silly old woman and try reading the point that I was making and desist from being abusive.
Wow, agressive and immature.Stop being a silly old woman and try reading the point that I was making and desist from being abusive.
It's not possible to have a discussion with you so I'm out.
Feel free to quote and have the last word though.
Not aggressive. I've no idea what car you drive and your hysteria is weird. Thank you for having the good grace to return from whence you crawled.
Mario149 said:
cypriot said:
Mario149 said:
Porsche know how to build excellent sportscars by and large and sell them by the bucket load even given how much theirs cost. So the litmus test is this:
Given the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
while I agree porsche know how to build excellent sport cars, they are a business with profits in mind. Porsche wants to push people towards the 911 as that is where the fat is. Porsche already have a F6T in the 991.2 models, so are seriously telling me that Porsche couldn't have found a way to fit them into the 718 to meet the emissions? BullsGiven the choice, would they have gone F4T (or F6T even) instead of keeping the NA lumps if they hadn't been forced to? Not a chance, which says it all really. As has been said on other threads, the move to F4 and/or FI has nothing to do with making a better sportscar and everything to do with meeting vacuous emissions regs.
Porsche just happen to be lucky that even when they're building something they don't want to, they can still make a decent job of it relative to most of their competitors offerings.
t. The move to the F4T was done very smartly on the non-iconic model, so that now the 718 well and truly is a poor man's porsche, and anyone wanting a "true" porsche now has to look at the 911 which gives the biggest profit margins. And they will still sell bucket loads of all the other porsche models like macans, cayenne's, 718s...Combine all that with the chassis, steering and brake improvements all the 991.2 and 718 models have seen and Porsche would be wiping the floor big style. As it is they've had to spend more money than they could have and all most enthusaists/journos are talking about is how the cars are very fast but they miss the NA F6 noise as they either now sound muted (911) or like a Subaru (718).
Am I right in thinking that emissions testing will change in the near future to reflect actual real life driving? All these new turbo engines from all the manufacturers are no where near as efficient as claimed when driving like a normal human being, which sort of defeats the object.
shoestring7 said:
I may well order one.
I'm not buying a 'lifestyle', I know what a Lotus is, know Porsche's didn't always come with flay sixes, and that you only find a conversation 'queue' in the post office.
SS7
I've driven the 987.1 PDK and the howl from the engine was sublime.I'm not buying a 'lifestyle', I know what a Lotus is, know Porsche's didn't always come with flay sixes, and that you only find a conversation 'queue' in the post office.
SS7
My daily driver is a 2016 Subaru WRX STI, which I like very much, and I know that not all flat-fours are alike, but it would be a shame to have an engine like that in a Cayman/Boxster imho. I like the sound of my car (as does my Ferrari 360-owning cousin), and it has a decent sound at high revs but it, nor any flat four I've ever heard comes close to the H6s fitted in Porsches til now. I still think that the Cayman/Boxster will be the pick of the bunch for most uses, but its a shame that the USP of driving engagement appears to not be as much of a priority now.
dlockhart said:
is these turbos are designed by accountants will there be a large aftermarket option so people can upgrade them for 400+ bhp
You'd have to think that maybe the approved tuners would be able to retune the set up to deliver a completely different type of car? Re-program the gearbox and turbos for when, where and how much boost?The same with the 911. Or will Porsche keep everything locked down and not allow partners to do this?
DonkeyApple said:
Play the ball, not the man.
By the way, it's not the engine of choice in F1. It's the engine that manufacturers wanted to promote on grounds of marketing their road cars. It's not what an enthusiast or an engineer would have chosen.
But back to the point, we are discussing the concept of snobbery making someone not buy this Porsche. That same person isn't going to then rush to buy a V6 are they? Especially not one from Toyota or in a far less aspirational brand as Lotus.
By the way, it's not the engine of choice in F1. It's the engine that manufacturers wanted to promote on grounds of marketing their road cars. It's not what an enthusiast or an engineer would have chosen.
But back to the point, we are discussing the concept of snobbery making someone not buy this Porsche. That same person isn't going to then rush to buy a V6 are they? Especially not one from Toyota or in a far less aspirational brand as Lotus.
A straight six may indeed be more characterful than a V6 (though the BMW 328i I once drove felt rather anodyne), but a V6 is definitely more characterful imho than most four-pots (and I own a Turbo four). However I do think that a company like Jaguar engineering in pops and bangs to its V6S F-Type is a bit ridiculous, though of course the V8 F seems to have the same engine "character" engineered in
BlackPrince said:
A straight six may indeed be more characterful than a V6 (though the BMW 328i I once drove felt rather anodyne), but a V6 is definitely more characterful imho than most four-pots (and I own a Turbo four). However I do think that a company like Jaguar engineering in pops and bangs to its V6S F-Type is a bit ridiculous, though of course the V8 F seems to have the same engine "character" engineered in
So, if someone is rejecting a premium brand such as Porsche on the grounds that the engine is not special enough then that person is very likely to raise the exact same concern over a car with a V6 in it. Until very recently the V6 has always been the budget option.
Even now as manufacturers are being forced to downsize and turbo engines and the V6 becomes the logical solution to replace V8s they are investing an absolute fortune in promoting the sporting pedigree of the V6 to combat the rather deep set notion that the V6 is the poor man's V. Probably in a few years an awful lot of the snobbery will have faded, especially among younger drivers.
And it's because of this perception that I don't think someone rejecting a 718 is naturally going to find their way into a Lotus. But Lotus appears to be growing healthier every year and it would be nice if they had reached the point that they have no need of Porche's sloppy seconds.
pretty happy with this on the configurator
added then reviewed and stripped back the unnecessary!
718 Cayman
Options
•20-inch Carrera S wheels
•Wheels painted in Jet Black Metallic (complete)
•Speed limit display
•Sports tailpipes in black
•Deletion of model designation
•Navigation Module for Porsche Communication Management (PCM)
•White
•Black Alcantara® and leatherette seats
•Sports seats (2-way, electric)
•Electrically folding exterior mirrors including courtesy lighting
•ParkAssist (front and rear)
•64-litre fuel tank
•Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
•ISOFIX child seat mounting points on front passenger seat
•Heated multifunction steering wheel
Base price:
£ 39,878.00
Price for equipment:
£ 7,387.00
Total price:
£ 47,265.00
added then reviewed and stripped back the unnecessary!
718 Cayman
Options
•20-inch Carrera S wheels
•Wheels painted in Jet Black Metallic (complete)
•Speed limit display
•Sports tailpipes in black
•Deletion of model designation
•Navigation Module for Porsche Communication Management (PCM)
•White
•Black Alcantara® and leatherette seats
•Sports seats (2-way, electric)
•Electrically folding exterior mirrors including courtesy lighting
•ParkAssist (front and rear)
•64-litre fuel tank
•Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
•ISOFIX child seat mounting points on front passenger seat
•Heated multifunction steering wheel
Base price:
£ 39,878.00
Price for equipment:
£ 7,387.00
Total price:
£ 47,265.00
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