RE: Porsche 718 Cayman - official

[DonkeyApple]

Artey said:

DonkeyApple said:

I don't see anyone actually turning down a Porsche on the grounds that the engine is low rent and then opting for a car that has an engine from a Toyota executive minicab?

Really bro? Why would reliable engine from reliable manufacturer be a bad thing if it can sound like this https://youtu.be/R1pU_tfMAUY

Yes really, bro!

If someone is turning away a Porsche because they don't tolerate a perfectly good engine on the grounds that it's a 4 pot turbo then they are not going to rush over to Lotus and suddenly be desperate for a another engine missing cylinders and made by Toyota. At that point sound very obviously has nothing to do with it.

[Red 5]

Adam Ansel said:

£75K for a fully loaded S.
Bargain.

Indeed it is
It's a tad cheaper than the 981....

Anyway, my ideal road based daily 718 came to under 60k. If you add auto box, PCCB an buckets to that, it's still under 70k.

[Artey]

DonkeyApple said:

Yes really, bro!

If someone is turning away a Porsche because they don't tolerate a perfectly good engine on the grounds that it's a 4 pot turbo then they are not going to rush over to Lotus and suddenly be desperate for a another engine missing cylinders and made by Toyota. At that point sound very obviously has nothing to do with it.

That stty Toyota engine is a 6 pot my boy. Carry on rambling, please.

[Hamma]

MikeGalos said:

Mothersruin said:

Does it really say '718 Cayman' on the back?

No, it says:

P O R S C H E
718 Cayman

So you can be sure that people looking at it know it was a Porsche you got out of.

For the next gen they'll also have the options list in chrome on the back.

[Artey]

Hamma said:

MikeGalos said:

Mothersruin said:

Does it really say '718 Cayman' on the back?

No, it says:

P O R S C H E
718 Cayman

So you can be sure that people looking at it know it was a Porsche you got out of.

For the next gen they'll also have the options list in chrome on the back.

And they will be LED lit, can't be a German facelift if it doesn't come with LED's.

[DonkeyApple]

Artey said:

That stty Toyota engine is a 6 pot my boy. Carry on rambling, please.

Yup. A V6.

Now pay attention. If a chap specifically rejects a Porsche on the grounds that it is a 4 pot then as an engine snob he is obviously not going to then tolerate a v6 is he.

It is not difficult. A V6 is a poor mans V8. It is only ever built as a cheap fix never as an ultimate engineering solution. They are the 'luxury' engine for bottom end brands or the bottom end engine for luxury brands.

So, if someone has an issue with a 4 pot then they are obviously going to have the same problem with a V6.

[kambites]

DonkeyApple said:

It is only ever built as a cheap fix never as an ultimate engineering solution.

I think that's rather an over-simplification. Some of the best drivers' cars ever made have been V6s and there's a good reason for that; V6s are small and roughly cuboid making them very easy to package efficiently. A boxer or inline-6 might be better from a balance point of view, but if you have to screw up your weight distribution or fit an inferior suspension system to make it fit, I'd rather have a V6.

If I was designing a sports car from the ground up, it'd probably have a (longitudinally mid-mounted) V6; not for cost reasons but because I think it's the best engineering solution.

ETA: But then I'm not the sort of person who would reject the Boxster because it only has four cylinders, so perhaps that reinforces your point rather than refuting it.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 26th April 08:55

[DonkeyApple]

kambites said:

DonkeyApple said:

It is only ever built as a cheap fix never as an ultimate engineering solution.

I think that's rather an over-simplification. Some of the best drivers' cars ever made have been V6s and there's a good reason for that; V6s are small and roughly cuboid making them very easy to package efficiently. A boxer or inline-6 might be better from a balance point of view, but if you have to screw up your weight distribution or fit an inferior suspension system to make it fit, I'd rather have a V6.

If I was designing a sports car from the ground up, it'd probably have a (longitudinally mid-mounted) V6; not for cost reasons but because I think it's the best engineering solution.

ETA: But then I'm not the sort of person who would reject the Boxster because it only has four cylinders, so perhaps that reinforces your point rather than refuting it.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 26th April 08:55

None of that matters as it simply isn't relevant to the point that in making.

Snobbery is snobbery. A V6 has exactly the same problem as a 4 pot. It's the poor man's solution in the eyes of the snob. Ergo, if someone is going to walk away from a Porsche simply because it is missing two cylinders and/or uses forced induction they are catagorically not then going to go and buy a Lotus which is also missing 2 cylinders and has FI.

The point being made is that if someone declines to buy a Porsche based on some kind of snobbery, value perception etc then that individual will not then be walking into a Lotus showroom, even if they can find one.

I'm also sure that VW Group have done the maths and worked out that any customer they do actually lose for such a reason will statistically end up buying one of their other products anyway. Most likely such wild snobbery would mean they'd load up and get a 911 and then start posting on PH about the peasants in their 4 pots.

[Mario149]

DonkeyApple said:

So, if someone has an issue with a 4 pot then they are obviously going to have the same problem with a V6.

I love NA F6s and am on my 4th, probably about to buy my 5th. I wouldn't buy a F4 turbo but I would buy a s/charged V6. Only problem with the latter in the Exige S I drove was that it sounded utterly horrible and uninteresting. If they could make it sound good (as it appears they have in the Evora) then I'd probably be on board. Given that they couldn't physically fit a V8 in the Lotus I don't have a prob with the V6. A bit like why I'm quite happy with the s/charged 4 pot in my Caterham.

To be clear, I'm not against FI in principle. I have a feeling I'll always prefer NA, but if you can retain enough of the NA characteristics while turbo/super charging, I'm not opposed to it. By that I mean retaining enough of

1) sound
2) power delivery e.g. engineered torque curve like in the 488, not max grunt from 1.8K rpm and the like
3) available revs
4) no lag
5) retaining the "correct" number of cylinders

The only turbo engine that apparently can achieve all of the above is the 488 lump, but even then given the choice I'd still have a 458 engine if I could. Porsche haven't got anywhere near it with the 991.2 apart from on point (5) and possibly on point (3), but 2 out of 5 is not good enough for me. The 718 only comes in at 1 out of 5. Although as always I will reserve final judgement until I drive one.

Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 26th April 09:32

[kambites]

DonkeyApple said:

Snobbery is snobbery. A V6 has exactly the same problem as a 4 pot. It's the poor man's solution in the eyes of the snob.

My point was that it probably depends on the snob in question.

Personally I would not buy a turbocharged sports-car but I have no problem with a four-pot or a V6. Whether that makes me an engine snob or not I suppose is open to debate but it would cause me to reject the Boxster/Cayman out-of-hand whilst being quite happy with the engine in the Evora/Exige.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 26th April 09:40

[Tuna]

kambites said:

My point was that it probably depends on the snob in question.

Badge snobbery usually only extends to the badge that the snob can actually afford.



A McLaren owner, a Porsche owner and a Ford owner, earlier.

[zebra]

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. A V6.

Now pay attention. If a chap specifically rejects a Porsche on the grounds that it is a 4 pot then as an engine snob he is obviously not going to then tolerate a v6 is he.

Winding your attitude in may not be a bad thing to developing a conversation.

The V6 is now the engine of choice in the pinnacle of Motorsport so not really buying your last comment.

[DonkeyApple]

zebra said:

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. A V6.

Now pay attention. If a chap specifically rejects a Porsche on the grounds that it is a 4 pot then as an engine snob he is obviously not going to then tolerate a v6 is he.

Winding your attitude in may not be a bad thing to developing a conversation.

The V6 is now the engine of choice in the pinnacle of Motorsport so not really buying your last comment.

Play the ball, not the man.

By the way, it's not the engine of choice in F1. It's the engine that manufacturers wanted to promote on grounds of marketing their road cars. It's not what an enthusiast or an engineer would have chosen.

But back to the point, we are discussing the concept of snobbery making someone not buy this Porsche. That same person isn't going to then rush to buy a V6 are they? Especially not one from Toyota or in a far less aspirational brand as Lotus.

[kambites]

You clearly have a view that a V6 is inferior to a boxer-6. That view is not universal.

[zebra]

kambites said:

You clearly have a view that a V6 is inferior to a boxer-6. That view is not universal.

Could be 'head against a brick wall' on this one though.

Fingers in ears, 'La la la la.' Cannot hear you.

[unpc]

Every 6 cylinder engine of any configuration I've had has been good or fantastic. I'm struggling to think of any 4 cylinder engines I've had or driven that rate anything better than good and most were way worse than that. On that basis I'm sure I'd prefer the V6 in the Lotus to the flat 4 in the Porsche but I haven't driven either to be fair. I really couldn't care less if it's a bespoke engine to that car or not.

[zebra]

DonkeyApple said:

Play the ball, not the man.

By the way, it's not the engine of choice in F1. It's the engine that manufacturers wanted to promote on grounds of marketing their road cars. It's not what an enthusiast or an engineer would have chosen.

Why do they wish to promote them then?

DonkeyApple said:

But back to the point, we are discussing the concept of snobbery making someone not buy this Porsche. That same person isn't going to then rush to buy a V6 are they? Especially not one from Toyota or in a far less aspirational brand as Lotus.

Congratulations on looking at my car history but that is a pretty lame attempt at trolling.

[Vitorio]

DonkeyApple said:

It is not difficult. A V6 is a poor mans V8. It is only ever built as a cheap fix never as an ultimate engineering solution. They are the 'luxury' engine for bottom end brands or the bottom end engine for luxury brands.

Doesnt the same apply to a V8? It is a bit of a pleb engine when you could have (should, really) a V12 in a proper luxury car.

Kidding aside, isnt the V6 at least properly balanced, like a boxer, V12 and i6 engine? A V8 has some inherent unbalancedness.

Either way, i think this all is rather silly, sure i'd like a 'special' engine, but a properly boosted/piped 4 cilinder boxer might even be rarer these days on the road then a V6, so as long as the power and noise are there.... do you really care?

[bosshog]

All this talk of 4 pot vs 6 pot. Personally I don't give a sh*t how many pots it has!. All I care about is how is sounds (and responds). So yes I'd rather have that Evora over the new boxster/caymen engine from the videos I have heard so far. Shame the Evora wasn't cheaper.

[Tuna]

To be fair to DonkeyApple, his basic point is reasonable. Anyone who flounces away from the Porsche on the grounds that it's got the wrong number of cylinders is hardly going to rush to their local Lotus dealer. If some arbitrary criteria is enough to put them off the Cayman, the Evora is not going to be 'specialist' enough to appease them - and they're unlikely to get as far as a test drive to discover otherwise.