RE: Ford Mustang: UK Review

RE: Ford Mustang: UK Review

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MuscleSaloon

1,541 posts

174 months

Friday 29th April 2016
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LuS1fer said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing an M4 to a Mustang and the apologists should know that.

The reason is that GM have made a 200lb lighter Camaro SS which can match and beat the M4 at the same price level as the Mustang GT.
This is a plain SS not a Z28 or 1LE.
It's a shame that GM didn't decide to take on the UK market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I
Agree with that post.

It's a shame GM didn't do the 5th Gen in RHD the last time they had a go with it in the UK. You ended up with LHD coupled with £500+ a year for UK road tax and a small and failing dealer support network. I always thought RHD shouldn't have been an impossible task given the existence of Holden / VXR8 in RHD form using the same platform. Would have loved to have seen the Challi in RHD as well, again how hard would it have been given the existence of RHD 300C Hemi and SRT8 ?



LuS1fer

41,086 posts

244 months

Friday 29th April 2016
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MuscleSaloon said:
LuS1fer said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing an M4 to a Mustang and the apologists should know that.

The reason is that GM have made a 200lb lighter Camaro SS which can match and beat the M4 at the same price level as the Mustang GT.
This is a plain SS not a Z28 or 1LE.
It's a shame that GM didn't decide to take on the UK market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I
Agree with that post.

It's a shame GM didn't do the 5th Gen in RHD the last time they had a go with it in the UK. You ended up with LHD coupled with £500+ a year for UK road tax and a small and failing dealer support network. I always thought RHD shouldn't have been an impossible task given the existence of Holden / VXR8 in RHD form using the same platform. Would have loved to have seen the Challi in RHD as well, again how hard would it have been given the existence of RHD 300C Hemi and SRT8 ?

Exactly and with the change in road fund licence, come 2017, they would be a lot more attractive these days.

Wills2

22,669 posts

174 months

Friday 29th April 2016
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I read that review thinking, well that's not very good is it? Mushy steering, doesn't feel that quick, cheap interior not much noise etc...

But most steering these days isn't that great and people said the e92 M3 wasn't very quick (but it is, so I reckon the Mustang can lift its skirts as well when pushed). The cheap interior? Well it's 35k for a 5.0V8 what do you expect? And the noise can be sorted with different exhaust.

Daft if people are going to compare it to an M3/4 or RS whatever as it's miles cheaper so it's unfair right from the start.

It's a good looking car with a 5.0V8 that with a decent after market exhaust would sound wonderful and for 35k that's got to be good news.




MuscleSaloon

1,541 posts

174 months

Friday 29th April 2016
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LuS1fer said:
Just had time to watch the whole video .. great stuff ! .. you have to ask why on earth aren't GM taking the 2016 Camaro global ?

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Friday 29th April 2016
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MuscleSaloon said:
LuS1fer said:
Just had time to watch the whole video .. great stuff ! .. you have to ask why on earth aren't GM taking the 2016 Camaro global ?
Isn't that a fantastic video. A bit of dry humour. And a fabulous performance by Camaro, both in terms of the road and in terms of value for money. Props to LuS1fer for posting that.

The product and engineering people who are responsible for Camaro are true petrolheads. They have seat time in all sorts of machines. Many have been to the great tracks of the world, and not merely for work.

To answer your question, one has to determine... How much effort is worth, say, a ten percent bump in sales? (from selling to rest-of-world; ie: ex-US)

If that ten percent increase would be solely LHD and solely within the EU... then I'd say we have an exciting business case on our hands. beer

Conversely, if we determine that this ten percent must be allocated across, say, three-dozen countries... and two-thirds of these countries will sell in volumes lower than, say, 1000 units, and one-third of all sales will be in RHD countries... and in all but three or four of the countries, there's no Chevrolet brand and no Chevrolet dealerships...

Suddenly it looks easier just to offer a 30-day sales incentive in the US... and you'll achieve something close to that ten percent figure that was anticipated from rest-of-world sales. At a cost which is staggeringly small in comparison.



Stig

11,817 posts

283 months

Friday 29th April 2016
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Threads like this always degenerate into the same old bks.

It's very simple. If you like them - buy one (I did).

If you don't, don't.

But respect each others choices, there's no point in trying to change minds that are happy as they are.

Simple really.

Wadeski

8,132 posts

212 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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Odd that the review compares the 5.0 V8 torque unfavorably to "those used to a European blown 4-Cyl", then dismisses the turbo Mustang (which has all the characteristics of a European blown 4-cyl, because it is one) as not satisfying. Surely what's good for the goose....

Diesel-like turbo 4-cyl petrol hot hatch motors are so dull they make me look forward to self-driving cars.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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kapiteinlangzaam said:
When you talk about Chevrolet, most people on the street think of a Matiz. The dealers are few and far between. The Camaro is only known to petrolheads outside of America. I can fully understand why GM arent making/promoting it in RHD, no matter how good the product is.

[/footnote]
Perhaps it should be sold under the local brands?

How does the Vauxhall/Opel Camaro sound?

I think movies like "Transformers" have broadened the awareness/appeal of the Camaro beyond American borders alongside the fact that the Aussies need something in RHD to replace their Holdens.

DonkeyApple

54,925 posts

168 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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kapiteinlangzaam said:
That was a good video with the Camaro.

I think if the latest generation had been at the dealer when I ordered my Mustang, I might have taken the Camaro instead.

The problem that GM have is that in Europe they have absolutely ZERO brand identity or loyalty. Everyone knows Ford, there are loads of dealers, the Mustang name is synonymous.

When you talk about Chevrolet, most people on the street think of a Matiz. The dealers are few and far between. The Camaro is only known to petrolheads outside of America. I can fully understand why GM arent making/promoting it in RHD, no matter how good the product is.

The previous gen (and the new gen.) Camaro has always been sold in Germany, so if you want a new Camaro its not exactly difficult to get hold of one. My closest (proper) GM dealer is 50km away in Monchengladbach and he will be getting is first batch of Camaros in June. They will cost about €50k, so about 10% more expensive than an equivalent Mustang - that will also hurt GM in Europe.


With reference to the M4; I can only echo what a few others have said before me. Although the style of car and BHP figures are similar, thats purely an indication of the Mustang punching above its class.... on price the cars couldnt be further apart. If I could afford an M4, I wouldnt be in the market for a Mustang, and tbh I still wouldnt buy an M4. Comparing net prices here in NL (to avoid confusing tax regimes), the Mustang GT is €35k, and the M4 is €76k. Its MORE THAN DOUBLE the price. Mental. They are in no way competition for each other.

Sticking to the similar price class, coupe, RWD etc etc. For my €35k I dont even get in to the base 418i (its €37k)... but its close enough. 5.0 sonorous V8 with all the options, or a pov spec 1.5L 3-banger with 136bhp (its the MINI engine). I know who the mugs are, and its not the Ford buyers!

Edited by kapiteinlangzaam on Friday 29th April 23:23
It's an interesting point that you raise. In the UK the Camaro product really is only recognised as a name by people into cars. However, thanks to many Anerican Tv shows the Mustang as a brand is known by an awful lot of people. By TV shows I mean generic shows like Beverly Hills etc where millions of non car people will have been exposed to the marque over the years.

And on top of that, Ford has extremely English connections, very strong English racing history and uses the same brand here and in the US. Conversely, GM has little brand penetration in the UK which is a huge marketing hurdle and their local brands lack much of what the Ford brand has.

Whether one product is better or worse isn't really relevant as Ford dominates the brand awareness, product awareness and pretty much every aspect when it comes to sales.

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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skyrover said:
Perhaps it should be sold under the local brands?

How does the Vauxhall/Opel Camaro sound?
How does the Chevrolet F-Type sound? How does the Americans captured the Enigma machine sound? wink

General Motors can (and does) play the badge-engineering game with lesser models, but Camaro in the US has almost the heritage of Mustang. Tear apart the two-word moniker "Chevrolet Camaro" and Yanks will be reaching for their proverbial pitchforks and shotguns.

skyrover said:
I think movies like "Transformers" have broadened the awareness/appeal of the Camaro beyond American borders alongside the fact that the Aussies need something in RHD to replace their Holdens.
Spot on. There's both opportunity and challenge in globalisation of content.

For the Americans, the appearance of Camaro in "Transformers" was but a pop culture flourish. A bit of fun in an otherwise long and storied history. A way to freshen the Camaro brand after a few years' hiatus.

Conversely, for most folks in Europe, "Transformers" is all that they know about Camaro. Most know nothing.

I could be wrong. But my money is on one of two solutions:

a) a handful of selected Vauxhall, Opel and Holden dealers offer "the Chevrolet Camaro" as a niche vehicle; the local brand is positioned as having access to a global product called the Chevrolet Camaro

b) a future Camaro is designed globally to be a Camaro in the US as well as a GT, Manta, Monaro or something else of historical relevance elsewhere; the non-US car has different body panels and a different engine; one of the US engines may be an option on non-US cars

The first, above, is the status quo with the exception of Holden. As LHD is essentially prohibited for new cars in Australia, General Motors would have to enter into a RHD conversion deal with one of the very accomplished conversion-engineering firms in Oz. This has been rumoured for Camaro, but I don't recall seeing anything official. And for reasons of cost, I would guess that it won't happen.



MuscleSaloon

1,541 posts

174 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
quotequote all
kapiteinlangzaam said:
That was a good video with the Camaro.

I think if the latest generation had been at the dealer when I ordered my Mustang, I might have taken the Camaro instead.

The problem that GM have is that in Europe they have absolutely ZERO brand identity or loyalty. Everyone knows Ford, there are loads of dealers, the Mustang name is synonymous.

Edited by kapiteinlangzaam on Friday 29th April 23:23
Obviously GM have got the infrastructure in the UK and Europe via Vauxhall and Opel if the desire was there to market any of their other brands, as they have done in the past.

Vauxhall is no small player in the UK - Corsa appears regularly in the top 5 UK sellers and Astra in the top 10.

Wouldn't it be great to have a ChevyStore within Vauxhall / Opel dealerships in the same way as FordStores are operating ? I would imagine someone within GM will be keeping an eye on what Ford are doing with the Mustang and Edge in the UK / Europe.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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GM have tried it before. With a 4 car line up. The Cadillac STS and the Blazer, both in RHD and the Camaro and Corvette as LHD. They were sold from select Vaxuahall dealers but branded as Chevrolet, often with a seperate showroom within a Vauxhall main dealer.

I think success was marginal. This was circa late 1997 to around 2004.

Thankyou4calling

10,595 posts

172 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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I think to say success was marginal is a bit of an over statement to say the least.

Pretty much EVERY US car that they've tried to sell in the UK (with the exception of the Chrysler 300c and that's vanished now) has been an unmitigated disaster.

Cadillac have tried numerous times, Chevrolet has been an embarrassment to the brand.

Why?? I don't know but if the big manufacturers thought there was money to be made from selling UK spec cars here they surely would be doing it.

The Cadillac line up stateside is excellent yet they don't bother. Look at what Ford offer in the US, some great stuff including the Edge, Explorer, Expedition and Flex yet all we get is the Mustang which will always be a very niche market.

The UK is all about Audi, Mercedes and BMW with Volvo and Jaguar fighting over the scraps.

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Saturday 30th April 13:40

markclow

118 posts

130 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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I live in Atlanta and have a 2016 camaro ss.
I had a 2007 m5 then a 135 before.

My Camaro gets the same gas mileage here as the 135.
But it has 150 more horsepower, has better brakes and handles better. Visibility is the only downside but I have already got used to it.

I like these pony cars, they are cheap and alot of fun.
Plus nowadays they handle well.
New Mustang is a good car, has similiar performance to e90 m3.

MuscleSaloon

1,541 posts

174 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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300bhp/ton said:
GM have tried it before. With a 4 car line up. The Cadillac STS and the Blazer, both in RHD and the Camaro and Corvette as LHD. They were sold from select Vaxuahall dealers but branded as Chevrolet, often with a seperate showroom within a Vauxhall main dealer.

I think success was marginal. This was circa late 1997 to around 2004.
Gen 5 Camaro has been officially UK available up until recently through various outlets. Indeed there is still an official GM line of supply in the UK for Camaro, Corvette and Cadillac - through Ian Allan Motors in Surrey.

The key to it all though is RHD. Loads of people who have bought the UK Mustang have said they aren't interested in the name, heritage or anything else. Just the availability of what looks like a cheap package with RHD.



Edited by MuscleSaloon on Saturday 30th April 15:41

Chafford1

211 posts

230 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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kambites said:
vz-r_dave said:
Checking their website that looks to be the case. Was thinking about the V8 XK's, I think they made them without the charger but guess I am bit behind the times smile
In terms of naturally aspirated petrol V8s you can buy in the UK now, I can only think of this and the Lexus one.
Corvette Z51 and the new 2016 Camaro have the normally aspirsted LT1 V8 and both are official imports. Check the Chevrolet UK or Ian Allan Motors websites. Cars on display at Goodwood FOS in June.


http://www.ianallanvirginiawater.co.uk/camaro-in-v...

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/

Still lhd though.





Edited by Chafford1 on Saturday 30th April 16:07

Hiro11

24 posts

185 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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Reaction to this review from an American:
- 36K pounds for a Mustang? And you think this is some sort of a bargain? I like the Mustang a bit and wouldn't even consider one at that price. No wonder the review is mixed. No wonder the comparisons being made look awfully strange to American eyes. This is, of course, nothing new. Also, to be fair, maybe the costs of bringing a niche product to Europe are likely significant.
- "Stetson, bootlace tie and cowboy boots" - I realize that this was a stereotype that the author is poking fun at, but I always find it funny that this is commonly cited as the "stereotypically American" look by Brits. Texas =/= the US, guys. I grew up in Boston, for example. Boston's not exactly a "rootin', tootin'" type of place. Los Angeles, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, Miami... all notably devoid of Stetsons. Basically any place that isn't Texas is notably not heavily populated with wanna-be cowboys. Also, urban cowboys (which do in fact exist, in Texas) don't drive Mustangs, they drive Silverados and F-150s. British people: you need to improve your stereotype game. Fat people, strip malls, In n' Out burger (which is hugely overrated, BTW, try Shake Shack) and mega-churches are more accurate stereotypes.
- The Camaro's better. Small block FTW.
- What is up with the British obsession with interior plastics? The new Mustang is fine, it's not an S7, but it's fine. Again, the insane UK pricing makes the complaints somewhat reasonable, but surely the V8 is the point? I had to reread the article two times before I realized that the author did in fact notice that the GT is actually a fairly competent performer.
- There's no way I'd buy a Mustang for driving on British B roads. Surely even an MX-5 is a better idea, even to me a dumb Yank.
- Note to some of the posters here: renting a 2009 V6 Mustang to tool around Orlando for a week six years ago is not a legitimate way to assess the current GT.

Chafford1

211 posts

230 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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Hiro11 said:
Reaction to this review from an American:
- 36K pounds for a Mustang? And you think this is some sort of a bargain? I like the Mustang a bit and wouldn't even consider one at that price. No wonder the review is mixed. No wonder the comparisons being made look awfully strange to American eyes. This is, of course, nothing new. Also, to be fair, maybe the costs of bringing a niche product to Europe are likely significant.
- "Stetson, bootlace tie and cowboy boots" - I realize that this was a stereotype that the author is poking fun at, but I always find it funny that this is commonly cited as the "stereotypically American" look by Brits. Texas =/= the US, guys. I grew up in Boston, for example. Boston's not exactly a "rootin', tootin'" type of place. Los Angeles, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, Miami... all notably devoid of Stetsons. Basically any place that isn't Texas is notably not heavily populated with wanna-be cowboys. Also, urban cowboys (which do in fact exist, in Texas) don't drive Mustangs, they drive Silverados and F-150s. British people: you need to improve your stereotype game. Fat people, strip malls, In n' Out burger (which is hugely overrated, BTW, try Shake Shack) and mega-churches are more accurate stereotypes.
- The Camaro's better. Small block FTW.
- What is up with the British obsession with interior plastics? The new Mustang is fine, it's not an S7, but it's fine. Again, the insane UK pricing makes the complaints somewhat reasonable, but surely the V8 is the point? I had to reread the article two times before I realized that the author did in fact notice that the GT is actually a fairly competent performer.
- There's no way I'd buy a Mustang for driving on British B roads. Surely even an MX-5 is a better idea, even to me a dumb Yank.
- Note to some of the posters here: renting a 2009 V6 Mustang to tool around Orlando for a week six years ago is not a legitimate way to assess the current GT.
The point is that in the UK the Mustang offers something that no other car offers at the same price which is why demand is high.

I agree stereotypes can be distasteful. How many US films cast Brits as baddies?

C.A.R.

3,967 posts

187 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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PH in 2013 "the next M3 will have FI" oh noes!
PH in 2016 "this NA V8 Mustang isn't as good as the FI competition at almost twice the price, I wonder why? Inexcusable"

Compare like-for-like, not apples and oranges. The only other naturally aspirated sporty coupe I can think of is the 370Z Nismo (NA V6). The GT86/BRZ don't come close, but then they're 2/3rds of the price again.

Petrolheads claimed to have a mutual craving for natural aspiration a few years ago, the harsh reality is that the majority have been spoilt with the easily accessible power from forced-induction, automated gearboxes, simulated engine sounds and nannying technology which returns great numbers for bragging rights and pub talk. Then Ford have the audacity to release the Mustang in the UK because these same people said that's what they wanted, only to dismiss it instantly on the grounds that it's not as fast/economical/plush/cheap on tax as their expensive Euro repmobile rolled in glitter and injected with turbo power.

Bloody cobblers. As the original review points out, the Mustang in the UK is all about the theatre rather than the figures. I'd love a UK Mustang just for that alone, plus the non-synthetic noise factor. Reality is that I can't afford one any time soon. And nor can most of the dismissive crowd either, who most likely drive grey, silver or white Golf GT TDIs or similar such blandness but somehow feel compelled to sit on their high horses and spout bullsh*t about cars they've not driven but have read about in publications and watched on YouTube and have deemed themselves qualified to do an armchair comparison.

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
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Chafford1 said:
How many US films cast Brits as baddies?
Nobody in the US notices this, because "baddies" in mass-market movies come in a range of US and foreign accents. Ze Germanz come in for regular roles, it must be said. The question you ask is very popular in the UK, but has no resonance in the US. Mainstream Americans are not chattering on about anything British in the bad guy. Just that he's otherly.

I, too, thought that the stetson / string tie / boots comment of the article was a step backwards. I've lived in seven US states and I may be able to count on one hand the number of days I've seen somebody dressed like that in the US.

"When they all come over on holiday," I thought to myself. "Is that what they see in the usual destinations like New York, LA, San Francisco and Orlando?"

If you're looking for an equivalent stereotype in the US, it would have been the Southeast academic (professors, lecturers or pundits of the Alistair Cooke variety), the East End working stiff, or the man in the bowler hat.

I say "would have been" because those old labels have been lost in the explosion of global media. Britons are diverse in US culture today and, consequently, fit no stereotype. Beckham, Wintour, Clarkson, Dench, John Oliver, Jamie Oliver, Ramsay, Gervais. confused

What's of greatest interest in regards to perceptions, in my haughty opinion, is that Mustang is more than just about value for money. I am aware that this puts me at odds with a good man, somewhere else in this thread, who has stated that the only notable appeal of Mustang is V8 for cheap.

I'd say Mustang is a brand in its own right. And a promise of sorts. A promise which has somewhat of a universal appeal.

Said another way, if Ford had built and priced a car similar to the Mustang and assigned it a new and different name -- The Vignale Coupe R -- I don't believe that this car would have experienced (in the UK and throughout the world) the same kaleidescope of glowing moments as the Mustang has.