just saw a new focus rs in the metal
Discussion
k-ink said:
"Hot hatch" means small. The focus is not small. It is a full sized family car. The fiesta is the small size, so that alone counts as the one and only hot hatch available from Ford (assuming it has a nippy engine fitted).
Otherwise if we are allowed to slap the title "hot hatch" on larger size cars from a manufacturers range, we get to call this a "hot hatch" too...
Hatchback. Cosworth engine. AWD. Fast. So under your rules it is a hot hatch.
Except it is not. Just like the Focus is not.
No, under "my" rules its not a hot hatch - because its not based on a small to medium sized hatchback. The focus is Fords medium sized offering these days. Just because its bigger doesnt change the fact that its their medium sized offering.Otherwise if we are allowed to slap the title "hot hatch" on larger size cars from a manufacturers range, we get to call this a "hot hatch" too...
Hatchback. Cosworth engine. AWD. Fast. So under your rules it is a hot hatch.
Except it is not. Just like the Focus is not.
k-ink said:
But no one used to call the old Escorts hot hatches and that was medium sized. That term was only applied to the smallest car in the range.
Yes they did!!Sure the Golf GTI was (arguably) the original hot hatch, Ford and others then followed suit by offering modified versions of their equivalents.
The rules havent changed - its still an upgraded small to medium sized car. What constitutes as the size of a small or medium sized car has changed though.
k-ink said:
If the rules are being changed then you have to call everything with a hatchback and fast engine a hot hatch.
No they havent and no you dont. 
Edited by daemon on Saturday 30th April 14:33
k-ink said:
Not once growing up in the 80s and 90s did I ever hear anyone describe a medium sized car as a hot hatch. But if you are your friends did, then fine. We will just have to disagree on that one.
You'll have to disagree with the entire motoring world then - are you saying the original Golf GTI wasnt a hot hatch?Your problem is you've grown up with a complete misunderstanding of the concept and now cant get your head around the fact you're wrong.
Go read up on it. Heres a Wiki page to get you started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_hatch
Heres some more
AutoExpress XR3i - hot hatch
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-reviews/38587/esc...
Classic & Performance Car - Top 10 1980s hot hatches -
http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/peugeot/20...
Hot Hatch culture discussed here on Pistonheads
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
EVO Magazine Top 5 Hot Hatches
http://www.evo.co.uk/features/15324/the-top-five-b...
Edited by daemon on Saturday 30th April 14:42
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Had a good poke around a grey one at the nürburgring this week. Utterly bland.
There was a white one too and that looked a little better but still more like an ST than anything "hot". The white one was lapping at Spa yesterday and it was bloody quick mind! Possibly a PH member? R5 WOT
Not sure if they're on PH but its the owner of SCC, reknown 'tuning' outfit for the previous version. There was a white one too and that looked a little better but still more like an ST than anything "hot". The white one was lapping at Spa yesterday and it was bloody quick mind! Possibly a PH member? R5 WOT
RS Direct have defo been inflating prices for the mk2, I know of a number of owners that sold cars to him only it to be washed and put back on the forecourt with a £5k increase. I only know one person that bought one from him and it took him ages to get it 'right'. But a fool and his money are easily parted, which has obviously helped them make hay.
Saw my first one last week (again, Nitrous Blue) and it looked like an ST with a bad kit and wrap. Agree with the poster above that the ST in hatch or estate form is much nicer (especially since the facelift) .
Suprised customers cars are being seen so often given the hold/recall currently in place.
You are posting modern internet links to prove what exactly? They may tell you how people refer to hot hatches NOW. What internet links wont do is tell you how people used to refer to hot hatches back in the day. For that you'll have to go back in time to when small cars we labelled hot hatches.
KarlMac said:
Not sure if they're on PH but its the owner of SCC, reknown 'tuning' outfit for the previous version.
RS Direct have defo been inflating prices for the mk2, I know of a number of owners that sold cars to him only it to be washed and put back on the forecourt with a £5k increase. I only know one person that bought one from him and it took him ages to get it 'right'. But a fool and his money are easily parted, which has obviously helped them make hay.
Saw my first one last week (again, Nitrous Blue) and it looked like an ST with a bad kit and wrap. Agree with the poster above that the ST in hatch or estate form is much nicer (especially since the facelift) .
Suprised customers cars are being seen so often given the hold/recall currently in place.
The recall is only on a few cars built over a select number of days. We've handed over about 15!RS Direct have defo been inflating prices for the mk2, I know of a number of owners that sold cars to him only it to be washed and put back on the forecourt with a £5k increase. I only know one person that bought one from him and it took him ages to get it 'right'. But a fool and his money are easily parted, which has obviously helped them make hay.
Saw my first one last week (again, Nitrous Blue) and it looked like an ST with a bad kit and wrap. Agree with the poster above that the ST in hatch or estate form is much nicer (especially since the facelift) .
Suprised customers cars are being seen so often given the hold/recall currently in place.
What's happened is this:
Original hot hatches like the Golf, Escort etc were 'hot hatches'.
However, now, that whole level of size of car has grown, and the one underneath it, (i.e Polo, Fiesta) now are generally that size.
So the original 'small family' car are now much bigger and thats across the board. They are still hot hatches...but now we have two sizes of hot hatch. The 'supermini' size that didnt used to exist and the 'small family' size like the Focus, Golf etc.
I'd class Focus, Golf etc as 'small family' cars, Mondeo, Passat etc as 'large family cars' (in the UK, that is!)
Original hot hatches like the Golf, Escort etc were 'hot hatches'.
However, now, that whole level of size of car has grown, and the one underneath it, (i.e Polo, Fiesta) now are generally that size.
So the original 'small family' car are now much bigger and thats across the board. They are still hot hatches...but now we have two sizes of hot hatch. The 'supermini' size that didnt used to exist and the 'small family' size like the Focus, Golf etc.
I'd class Focus, Golf etc as 'small family' cars, Mondeo, Passat etc as 'large family cars' (in the UK, that is!)
k-ink said:
You are posting modern internet links to prove what exactly? They may tell you how people refer to hot hatches NOW. What internet links wont do is tell you how people used to refer to hot hatches back in the day. For that you'll have to go back in time to when small cars we labelled hot hatches .
Nope - i can simply show you magazines from the time 
Heres a link to a July 1998 magazine refering to Hot Hatches, and its covering, among others the Ford Focus, and the Astra
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUTOCAR-8-JULY-1998-TOP-...
1997 Autocar magazine referring to a "Hot Hatch" supertest, including A3, Golf GTI, Astra, Peugeot 306....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUTOCAR-HOT-HATCH-August...
1991 Autocar magazine covering a "Hot Hatch Group Test" including the Escort XR3i and Astra GSi.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUTOCAR-HOT-HATCH-GROUP-...
1991 Renault 19 16v press release referring to it as a "hot hatch", and MOST INTERESTINGLY comparing it to its "hot hatch" competitors - the Astra GTE, Golf GTI, Rover 220 GTI and Peugeot 309 GTI
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-19-16V-Hot-Hatch...
Edited by daemon on Saturday 30th April 15:09
Ok that is a fair effort 
Anything from the 1980s?
It seems to me that growing up in the 80s, it was only the smallest cars being called hot hatches. At some point there must have been a split, where by small and medium size classes will have been called hot hatches by some. The later on you get the hazier the distinction becomes.
It may well have been around the time that some manufactures started to get more models. An example: Peugeot 106 GTI and the 306 GTI being sold at the same time. In all honesty myself and everyone I knew back in the 1980s only ever referred to the smallest car a manufacturer made as "hot hatches". The medium size cars were seen as "fast cars" - which included things like the Escort Cosworth, Renault 19 16v etc.
Anything from the 1980s? It seems to me that growing up in the 80s, it was only the smallest cars being called hot hatches. At some point there must have been a split, where by small and medium size classes will have been called hot hatches by some. The later on you get the hazier the distinction becomes.
It may well have been around the time that some manufactures started to get more models. An example: Peugeot 106 GTI and the 306 GTI being sold at the same time. In all honesty myself and everyone I knew back in the 1980s only ever referred to the smallest car a manufacturer made as "hot hatches". The medium size cars were seen as "fast cars" - which included things like the Escort Cosworth, Renault 19 16v etc.
k-ink said:
Ok that is a fair effort Anything from the 1980s?
It seems to me that growing up in the 80s, it was only the smallest cars being called hot hatches. At some point there must have been a split, where by small and medium size classes will have been called hot hatches by some. The later on you get the hazier the distinction becomes.
It may well have been around the time that some manufactures started to get more models. An example: Peugeot 106 GTI and the 306 GTI being sold at the same time. In all honesty myself and everyone I knew back in the 1980s only ever referred to the smallest car a manufacturer made as "hot hatches". The medium size cars were seen as "fast cars" - which included things like the Escort Cosworth, Renault 19 16v etc.
Found this 1992 Top Gear review of "hot hatches" - Golf GTI and XR3i. Anything from the 1980s? It seems to me that growing up in the 80s, it was only the smallest cars being called hot hatches. At some point there must have been a split, where by small and medium size classes will have been called hot hatches by some. The later on you get the hazier the distinction becomes.
It may well have been around the time that some manufactures started to get more models. An example: Peugeot 106 GTI and the 306 GTI being sold at the same time. In all honesty myself and everyone I knew back in the 1980s only ever referred to the smallest car a manufacturer made as "hot hatches". The medium size cars were seen as "fast cars" - which included things like the Escort Cosworth, Renault 19 16v etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkeUcSqVv9Y
Your perception may have been that it only referred to small cars, but i grew up through the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s too and the Golf GTI sized cars were always considered hot hatches. I was selling MG / Rovers in 1988 and the MG Maestro was their "hot hatch" to rival the Golf GTI and XR3i.
Edited by daemon on Saturday 30th April 15:26
k-ink said:
Ok that is a fair effort Anything from the 1980s?
It seems to me that growing up in the 80s, it was only the smallest cars being called hot hatches. At some point there must have been a split, where by small and medium size classes will have been called hot hatches by some. The later on you get the hazier the distinction becomes.
It may well have been around the time that some manufactures started to get more models. An example: Peugeot 106 GTI and the 306 GTI being sold at the same time. In all honesty myself and everyone I knew back in the 1980s only ever referred to the smallest car a manufacturer made as "hot hatches". The medium size cars were seen as "fast cars" - which included things like the Escort Cosworth, Renault 19 16v etc.
Let it go k-ink, ffs. You're like the friend I have who can't concede he's wrong on something even when it'd blindingly obvious! Yeah, he's a decent mate, but always has to be right. Anything from the 1980s? It seems to me that growing up in the 80s, it was only the smallest cars being called hot hatches. At some point there must have been a split, where by small and medium size classes will have been called hot hatches by some. The later on you get the hazier the distinction becomes.
It may well have been around the time that some manufactures started to get more models. An example: Peugeot 106 GTI and the 306 GTI being sold at the same time. In all honesty myself and everyone I knew back in the 1980s only ever referred to the smallest car a manufacturer made as "hot hatches". The medium size cars were seen as "fast cars" - which included things like the Escort Cosworth, Renault 19 16v etc.
IMHO this is what I personally classify as a genuine hot hatch:
1. Small sized three door body shell.
(If that body is also available as a five door elsewhere it does not count).
2. The most powerful engine for that small body shell is fitted.
3. Unlikely anymore, but in my heart I consider anything under 1000kg to be a gold star rated hot hatch. The 106GTI at 850kg is amazing in this respect. To bring that up to date now, I'd be very generous and set that limit to 1100kg to cover 100kg of safety crap. (Anything approaching or beyond 1200kg is a lard arse family wagon).
Again, IMHO. I'm done
1. Small sized three door body shell.
(If that body is also available as a five door elsewhere it does not count).
2. The most powerful engine for that small body shell is fitted.
3. Unlikely anymore, but in my heart I consider anything under 1000kg to be a gold star rated hot hatch. The 106GTI at 850kg is amazing in this respect. To bring that up to date now, I'd be very generous and set that limit to 1100kg to cover 100kg of safety crap. (Anything approaching or beyond 1200kg is a lard arse family wagon).
Again, IMHO. I'm done
k-ink said:
IMHO this is what I personally classify as a genuine hot hatch:
1. Small sized three door body shell.
(If that body is also available as a five door elsewhere it does not count).
2. The most powerful engine for that small body shell is fitted.
3. Unlikely anymore, but in my heart I consider anything under 1000kg to be a gold star rated hot hatch. The 106GTI at 850kg is amazing in this respect. To bring that up to date now, I'd be very generous and set that limit to 1100kg to cover 100kg of safety crap. (Anything approaching or beyond 1200kg is a lard arse family wagon).
Again, IMHO. I'm done
You'd be wrong then. 1. Small sized three door body shell.
(If that body is also available as a five door elsewhere it does not count).
2. The most powerful engine for that small body shell is fitted.
3. Unlikely anymore, but in my heart I consider anything under 1000kg to be a gold star rated hot hatch. The 106GTI at 850kg is amazing in this respect. To bring that up to date now, I'd be very generous and set that limit to 1100kg to cover 100kg of safety crap. (Anything approaching or beyond 1200kg is a lard arse family wagon).
Again, IMHO. I'm done
Its a shame you cant bring yourself to admit that, rather than just reiterating your stance though.
So in conclusion I am apparently wrong. Therefore it seems the Porsche Panamera is indeed a hot hatch after all. It is the smallest and lightest four seater car they make: designed to haul a family around, yet has a sporting edge. Apparently the number of doors, weight, dimensions and price never come into it anymore. I am glad we cleared that all up.
Moving on...
Moving on...
k-ink said:
So in conclusion I am apparently wrong. Therefore it seems the Porsche Panamera is indeed a hot hatch after all. It is the smallest and lightest four seater car they make: designed to haul a family around, yet has a sporting edge. Apparently the number of doors, weight, dimensions and price never come into it anymore. I am glad we cleared that all up.
Moving on...
Along with the RRS SVR ! Moving on...
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