Define Hot Hatch

Author
Discussion

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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Ain't an Escort in anything but name!

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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MarshPhantom said:
Hot hatches should be affordable,
Then that would rule out most of them. As any "hot" version of any hatch range is likely to be 50-100% more than the base model.

And frankly I don't consider something like a current Golf GTI as a particularly affordable car. And certainly not for what it offers.



MarshPhantom said:
much like muscle cars to use an example you may6 understand.

No one would call a DB9 a muscle car or a Capri a GT. So why not?
Muscle cars usually have 4 doors.


EDIT:

Later reply deleted. This was a typo, I mean 4 seats, not doors.

As in, a muscle car is historically a 'full size' 4 seater car. Not a sporty 2 door 2 seat or 2+2 coupe or GT.

Camaro, Mustang and Firebird are more of a sub-class of muscle car, known as Pony cars.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 5th May 11:38

Leins

9,418 posts

147 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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Seem to recall a very similar thread / posters from a few years ago. Sometimes PH goes around in more circles than a Milton Keynes taxi driver

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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otolith said:
300bhp/ton said:
otolith said:
A Sierra in drag.
But it's not a Sierra body style or format. So in terms of it being a hot hatch, it has no bearing on it.
What hatch is it a hot version of?
Look at the badge, it's really not hard to fathom.

And since when must there be a lesser model for a single variant to be deemed either a hatch or hot?

Me rather thinks you are grasping at straws and being rather petty and ridiculous about it.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
otolith said:
Ain't an Escort in anything but name!
And a Discovery is a Range Rover, a Volvo a Ford, a Mazda a Ford, a KA a Fiat and so on and so on.

Oh yeah, and what do you call all those metally things on the outside of a car, ummm yes, that's it bodywork. Doesn't look remotely Sierra to me.

MarshPhantom

9,658 posts

136 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
MarshPhantom said:
Hot hatches should be affordable,
Then that would rule out most of them. As any "hot" version of any hatch range is likely to be 50-100% more than the base model.

And frankly I don't consider something like a current Golf GTI as a particularly affordable car. And certainly not for what it offers.



MarshPhantom said:
much like muscle cars to use an example you may6 understand.

No one would call a DB9 a muscle car or a Capri a GT. So why not?
Muscle cars usually have 4 doors.
Who said I was talking about the Golf Gti. Everything is relative, would you agree 30k is more affordable than 60k?

Are muscle cars mostly 4dr. I was thinking about Mustangs, Camaros and the like.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Look at the badge, it's really not hard to fathom.

And since when must there be a lesser model for a single variant to be deemed either a hatch or hot?

Me rather thinks you are grasping at straws and being rather petty and ridiculous about it.
Nope, I'm defining a hot hatch as a version of an ordinary A, B or C-segment car with added performance. Not a one-off model which happens to share a name and some superficial styling details with one. It's not the definition you are using, but it doesn't cause me to include things which clearly aren't hot hatches (like Porsches or Ferraris).

Ali_T

3,379 posts

256 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
seats 4-5 adults
has a hatchback
pokey engine must be transverse
spoilers
front wheel drive or front biased four wheel drive
small or mid size european body
Er....






Ali_T

3,379 posts

256 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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MarshPhantom said:
What are you going on about? If the HF was a hot hatch what was the Integrale?

The Williams is a hot hatch because it's a Clio 16v (can we agree this is a hot hatch?) with blue paint and gold wheels. The Integrale had, at the very least a bigger, much more powerful engine and 4x4 over the 2wd HF. Do you really not see the difference or you just being awkward?
The HF 4x4 was a production model with the same turbo charged 2.0 that the Integrale would get, just with 20 bhp less. The Integrale replaced it. It was a new production model in the same way the Mk2 Golf GTI 8v gave way to the 16v. True, it's purpose was to homologate the wider track and flared arches but it carried on for years, not just as a limited production run like the Golf Rallye. At the end of Lancia's existence in the UK, they ONLY sold the Integrale so to call it a homologation special is just wrong.

MarshPhantom

9,658 posts

136 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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Ali_T said:
MarshPhantom said:
What are you going on about? If the HF was a hot hatch what was the Integrale?

The Williams is a hot hatch because it's a Clio 16v (can we agree this is a hot hatch?) with blue paint and gold wheels. The Integrale had, at the very least a bigger, much more powerful engine and 4x4 over the 2wd HF. Do you really not see the difference or you just being awkward?
The HF 4x4 was a production model with the same turbo charged 2.0 that the Integrale would get, just with 20 bhp less. The Integrale replaced it. It was a new production model in the same way the Mk2 Golf GTI 8v gave way to the 16v. True, it's purpose was to homologate the wider track and flared arches but it carried on for years, not just as a limited production run like the Golf Rallye. At the end of Lancia's existence in the UK, they ONLY sold the Integrale so to call it a homologation special is just wrong.
Still doesn't pass the affordabilty test.
The Integrale was designed to be a homologation special, staying in production for a long time doesn't change that.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
MarshPhantom said:
Ali_T said:
MarshPhantom said:
What are you going on about? If the HF was a hot hatch what was the Integrale?

The Williams is a hot hatch because it's a Clio 16v (can we agree this is a hot hatch?) with blue paint and gold wheels. The Integrale had, at the very least a bigger, much more powerful engine and 4x4 over the 2wd HF. Do you really not see the difference or you just being awkward?
The HF 4x4 was a production model with the same turbo charged 2.0 that the Integrale would get, just with 20 bhp less. The Integrale replaced it. It was a new production model in the same way the Mk2 Golf GTI 8v gave way to the 16v. True, it's purpose was to homologate the wider track and flared arches but it carried on for years, not just as a limited production run like the Golf Rallye. At the end of Lancia's existence in the UK, they ONLY sold the Integrale so to call it a homologation special is just wrong.
Still doesn't pass the affordabilty test.
The Integrale was designed to be a homologation special, staying in production for a long time doesn't change that.
You really are 100% stubborn aren't you. Please go and read up on these, because you are doing yourself a massive dis-justice.


I'll give you place to start:
http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Lancia/classic/Del...

Don't just flick through the first bit, read it all. As it tells you a lot about the models and how the HF 4WD existed while Grp B was still the top rally category.

Also please note, homologation specials are normally built in small numbers, yet Lancia built around 44,000 4wd Delta's. How any sane person can claim 44,000 cars are a "homoligation special" beggars belief!

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 4th May 16:02

Coolbanana

4,383 posts

199 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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A 'hot hatch' is an upgraded, sporty performance derivative of an existing 3 or 5 door small family car. This by definition excludes the likes of the Ferrari FF et al since they aren't upgraded versions of a non-performance model designed as a family car.

The term 'hot hatch' now refers to cars like the A45 AMG, Golf R, Civic Type R etc while 'warm hatch' describes the likes of the Golf GTI etc; cars that until recently, would have been 'hot hatches' themselves but for the advent of the power race currently being waged which has seen the advent of small, Family hatchbacks with power usually reserved for far more specialist performance metal.

Patrick Bateman

12,143 posts

173 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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A Golf GTI only a warm hatch now? Don't agree at all. Using outright power isn't the best way to judge this because then you'd have to say a Fiesta ST is only a warm hatch.

EnglishTony

Original Poster:

2,552 posts

98 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
HF 4WD, hot hatch..
Integrale, homogolation special.

That's not difficult surely?

Escort RS 2000 4WD, another homogolation special. As was the Escort Cosworth and the car it was based on, the Sierra Cosworth.

Wheras the Subaru Impreza WRX STI 5 door was too hot to be a hot hatch but not a homogolation special (unlike it's ancestors) so is an Ultra Hatch.

Or does anybody want to argue that the Imprezas and Lancer Evo where just ordinary fast saloons and not homogolation specials?

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
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Coolbanana said:
A 'hot hatch' is an upgraded, sporty performance derivative of an existing 3 or 5 door small family car. This by definition excludes the likes of the Ferrari FF et al since they aren't upgraded versions of a non-performance model designed as a family car.

The term 'hot hatch' now refers to cars like the A45 AMG, Golf R, Civic Type R etc while 'warm hatch' describes the likes of the Golf GTI etc; cars that until recently, would have been 'hot hatches' themselves but for the advent of the power race currently being waged which has seen the advent of small, Family hatchbacks with power usually reserved for far more specialist performance metal.
What he said. It's fairly obvious what a hot hatch is. Apart from the Golf GTI being a warm hatch, the GTI is most definitely a hot hatch.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 4th May 2016
quotequote all
EnglishTony said:
HF 4WD, hot hatch..
Integrale, homogolation special.

That's not difficult surely?
They are essentially the same vehicle. So you are correct, it shouldn't be difficult. It should be 100% obvious. Yet still seems to baffle so many it's not true.

Oh and for the record, most of those 44,000 cars are Intergrale's not HF 4WD's. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe homoligation specials run to such extreme numbers? Most Grp B cars totalled 25-500 cars. And extreme cases for Grp A maybe 1500 or so. Not 44,000 cars. Are you not able to comprehend that size of a number??? To put that in perspective, Lotus only built around 11,000 S1 Elise's.

Mr Tidy

22,065 posts

126 months

Thursday 5th May 2016
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
And a Discovery is a Range Rover, a Volvo a Ford, a Mazda a Ford, a KA a Fiat and so on and so on.

Oh yeah, and what do you call all those metally things on the outside of a car, ummm yes, that's it bodywork. Doesn't look remotely Sierra to me.
Good luck buying a Ford Volvo - they have divorced!

MarshPhantom

9,658 posts

136 months

Thursday 5th May 2016
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
EnglishTony said:
HF 4WD, hot hatch..
Integrale, homogolation special.

That's not difficult surely?
They are essentially the same vehicle. So you are correct, it shouldn't be difficult. It should be 100% obvious. Yet still seems to baffle so many it's not true.

Oh and for the record, most of those 44,000 cars are Intergrale's not HF 4WD's. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe homoligation specials run to such extreme numbers? Most Grp B cars totalled 25-500 cars. And extreme cases for Grp A maybe 1500 or so. Not 44,000 cars. Are you not able to comprehend that size of a number??? To put that in perspective, Lotus only built around 11,000 S1 Elise's.
I really don't know what numbers sold has to do with whether it was homo special or not. As I posted above it was designed to be one, just because it was more successful and stayed in production longer than expected doesn't make one bit of difference. Should Lancia have stopped selling them so it fits with your definition of what a rally special should be?

Hot hatch should also be practical, the Delta was LHD only ruling it out as an everyday car for most people.

smile

Impasse

15,099 posts

240 months

Thursday 5th May 2016
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MarshPhantom said:
...whether it was homo special or not.
//Childish snigger//

xRIEx

8,180 posts

147 months

Thursday 5th May 2016
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MarshPhantom said:
Hot hatch should also be practical, the Delta was LHD only ruling it out as an everyday car for most people.

smile
Ok, that paragraph is going to need explanation - why is LHD less practical for "most people"? Most people already drive LHD cars.