Define Hot Hatch

[Alex_225]

I suppose to me the definition of a hot hatch is defined by the originals like the MKI Golf GTI or the Renault 5 Turbo.

A factory modified version of a normal hatchback so it's cheap, light, basic and most importantly fun.

There are some epic cars out there that are considered hot hatches but I'm not sure if paddle shift gearboxes and huge bhp is the original recipe.

[SlimJim16v]

Blayney said:

Lancia Delta Integrale... both a rally rep and a hot hatch.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-offici...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/best-ho...

http://www.classiccarchasers.com/#!Ultimate-Hot-Ha...

and 3 sources which list it as the greatest hot hatch ever.

I look forward to the response

It's more than that, it regularly makes lists of the best cars ever made, frequently comming first.

[1Addicted]

This went to the crapper quite quickly but, I think it's fair to say, that in the breed's infancy, a hot-hatch was a compact car based on a affordable small family car but, with a performance oriented engine and chassis. By definition, a hatchback is any car where the rear window is inclusive of the tailgate but, the term IMO doesn't extend further than your run of the mill cars, on mild steroids.

Think old as in 80's/90's...

Golf GTi
Delta HF/Martini/HF Turbo/4wd
Escort/Fiesta RS Turbo
Astra/Nova GTE/GSi
205/309/106 GTi
R5 GTT
R19/Clio Williams
Civic VTi EF/EG/EK
Charade GTti
MG Maestro
Etc.

There was an underlying warm-hatch category but quite small. Some were the earlier hot hatches of their day (such as XR2) but were superseded...

Escort XR3i under RST
Fiest XR2i under RST
Clio 16v under Williams
Civic ESi under VTi
Nova SR under GTE/GSi
106 XSi (MK1)
etc.

Back then you still had your hotter hot hatches too, such as...

- Delta HF Integrale 8V/16V
- Escort RS Cosworth
- Sierra RS Cosworth (whale-tail), but arguably could be classed as fast mid-sized saloon along with the Sapphire as was not stereotypically the look of mainstream hatchbacks (small and box like) and was above the Escort of the day
- EK Civic Type R (you could say Integra, but all the UK got was the TR)
- Pulsar GTiR

You had things such like the Celica GT4, MK3 Supra or CRX for example but they are arguably not a hot hatch despite the tailgate operation as they're not of stereotypical look, and were never marketed as an affordable small family car.

Past the days of the Integrale, things evolved and it would be sacrilege to pump anything less than 180bhp into a hot hatch. Born were things such as the Leon 20VT/Cupra, 206 GTi 180, EP Civic Type R, Focus RS. Things then moved on a grade as the Leon's were then bettered by the Cupra R, S3 was born, Astra VXR, Mazda 3 MPS etc, Focus ST, 5cyl RS (hot-hot I suppose) and, as the numbers game grew, so did the expansion of the 'warm hatch' category where Fiesta ST was born, Corsa VXR and the like.

We now have roughy what, 250bhp as an average output for a hot hatch, maybe more, with the latest ultra hot types averaging 340bhp and topping at 400bhp in the not too distant future. Times have moved on, but the definition hasn't IMO, only the sector has evolved.

Edited by 1Addicted on Tuesday 3rd May 11:06

[300bhp/ton]

It's actually not that hard to define a hot hatch.


It goes one of two ways:


1. Anything that is a hatch and is arguably hot in the performance/driving sense. This is a broad category, and obviously many cars that you could apply this definition too, will fit other definitions better.


2. A more traditional look. That it has to be a Segment B or maybe A & C in the European Car Segment guide. And built for the pretence of performance, fun and handling relative to it's peers and price point.


Where people get confused is, there are many names that have been around a long time, but have continually moved up market, up sized and sit in different Segment categories today, compared to where they used to be. Lots of people also don't like ultra hot versions to be counted as hot hatches, but for no rational reason. And usually offer up contradicting reasons that ultimately make no sense.

The term 'hot hatch' only really dates from the mid 1980's, so this can only be applied retrospectively to older cars that might happen to fit the definition.


As a norm this has been a very much European style of car, although as Europe is a large market, there have been many American and Japanese manufactures of hot hatches.

[zebra]

HappyMidget said:

bigvanfan said:

It's a strange one , I'd wouldn't call a golf r a hot hatch (not sure why) but a gti is

That is because it is a junior supercar, obviously...

...or a hyper-hatch.

Er, no. There is no such thing as a hyper hatch. The R is a hot hatch, a damn fine one but still a hot hatch.

[EnglishTony]

I think I am going to have to disagree on the Golf R. Not only does it have 6 cylinders but it's just not a hot hatch. I'll go with Ultra Hatch though, to include the Focus RS (2 and 3), the Merc 4wd thing and RS/S 3 Audis.

The Escort Cosworth counts, for me, as a Homogolation special along with the Integrales and Group B stuff.

Finally, no a Golf TDI isn't a Hot Hatch.

[TheJimi]

EnglishTony said:

I think I am going to have to disagree on the Golf R. Not only does it have 6 cylinders

The 'R is a four banger, dude.

[Vitorio]

EnglishTony said:

I think I am going to have to disagree on the Golf R. Not only does it have 6 cylinders

What does cylinder count have to do with it? Focus ST, 147GTA etc.. And imho the Fiesta with the 3 banger tuned up to 140hp is a decent warm-hatch (honestly, the same power/weight wouldve been hot not too long ago) as well.

[Truckosaurus]

EnglishTony said:

...Finally, no a Golf TDI isn't a Hot Hatch.

Is there anything diesel worthy of the 'hot hatch' moniker?

I think for a brief period in the mid-'00s when the Fabia vRS first came out then that would have counted but then common rail diesels came along and made its 130bhp look pretty weak.

So, The Rules thus far:
No diesels
No RWD
No 4wd
4 cylinders. (Potential exceptions: Daihatsu Charade GTti (3-cyl), Volvo C30 T5 (5-cyl), Alfa 147 GTA (6-cyl))
Forced induction allowed (historical precedent from the '80s: R5GT, Escort RS, Uno Turbo etc.)

[KingNothing]

Warm hatch
Hyper hatch
Junior Supercar

[JockySteer]

Truckosaurus said:

Blayney said:

Why not?

They are all much better than mere hot hatchbacks.

135i is RWD.

Clio V6 is as much a hatchback as the Cayman pictured earlier.

Escort Cosworth is a Rally-Rep similar to contemporary Imprezas, Evos or Integrales (all available in 5dr forms)

Yet they are all hot hatchbacks. Not sure you're able to redefine a car class just because you don't like that certain cars fall in to the category.

As for the definition.. 'A Hot hatch is a high-performance derivative of a car body style consisting of a three- or five-door hatchback automobile.' A definition that (unfortunately for you) covers the above quite comfortably.

[AH33]

My Corsa VXR is a hot hatch, as is any beefed up shopping trolley that can do 0-60 in sub 7.

My DS3 155 was a warm hatch, as is any slightly beefed up shopping trolley than can do 0-60 in 7-9 seconds.

Anything faster is a supercar. Anything slower is a Prius.

Hope that helps

[zebra]

AH33 said:

My Corsa VXR is a hot hatch, as is any beefed up shopping trolley that can do 0-60 in sub 7.

My DS3 155 was a warm hatch, as is any slightly beefed up shopping trolley than can do 0-60 in 7-9 seconds.

Anything faster is a supercar. Anything slower is a Prius.

Hope that helps

'Anything faster is a supercar' is not a supercar unless it 'actually is' a supercar.

[300bhp/ton]

Truckosaurus said:

EnglishTony said:

...Finally, no a Golf TDI isn't a Hot Hatch.

Is there anything diesel worthy of the 'hot hatch' moniker?

I think for a brief period in the mid-'00s when the Fabia vRS first came out then that would have counted but then common rail diesels came along and made its 130bhp look pretty weak.

So, The Rules thus far:
No diesels
No RWD
No 4wd
4 cylinders. (Potential exceptions: Daihatsu Charade GTti (3-cyl), Volvo C30 T5 (5-cyl), Alfa 147 GTA (6-cyl))
Forced induction allowed (historical precedent from the '80s: R5GT, Escort RS, Uno Turbo etc.)

eh?

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 3rd May 18:16

[xRIEx]

300bhp/ton said:

Truckosaurus said:

EnglishTony said:

...Finally, no a Golf TDI isn't a Hot Hatch.

Is there anything diesel worthy of the 'hot hatch' moniker?

I think for a brief period in the mid-'00s when the Fabia vRS first came out then that would have counted but then common rail diesels came along and made its 130bhp look pretty weak.

So, The Rules thus far:
No diesels
No RWD
No 4wd
4 cylinders. (Potential exceptions: Daihatsu Charade GTti (3-cyl), Volvo C30 T5 (5-cyl), Alfa 147 GTA (6-cyl))
Forced induction allowed (historical precedent from the '80s: R5GT, Escort RS, Uno Turbo etc.)

eh?


[img]http://images.car.bauercdn.com/upload/33445/images/01_lotus_sunbeam.jpg/img]

I know.

And

[MarshPhantom]

ash73 said:

Sorry, I'll do it properly

Not sure if serious. I don't think many people would refer to that as a hot hatch.

[MarshPhantom]

Meridius said:

The Integrale is definitely a hot hatch, its just hotter than the HF. Same with the Golf R, hot hatchback, just hotter than the GTI.

Homologation special. The Golf R is the modern day equivalent of the Audi Quattro rather than the Golf GTI.

[xRIEx]

MarshPhantom said:

Meridius said:

The Integrale is definitely a hot hatch, its just hotter than the HF. Same with the Golf R, hot hatchback, just hotter than the GTI.

Homologation special. The Golf R is the modern day equivalent of the Audi Quattro rather than the Golf GTI.

Can a car not be a homologation model and a hatchback at the same time?

[Stickyfinger]

So where would you put the Activa V6 then ?

FWD
V6
Transverse engine
SC CAR Active Suspension
Faster than the other models in the range
Stupid cornering Speeds
Very comfortable
Rear hatch
Seats 5
5 doors
Not a homologation "special" but general production.

[300bhp/ton]

xRIEx said:

MarshPhantom said:

Meridius said:

The Integrale is definitely a hot hatch, its just hotter than the HF. Same with the Golf R, hot hatchback, just hotter than the GTI.

Homologation special. The Golf R is the modern day equivalent of the Audi Quattro rather than the Golf GTI.

Can a car not be a homologation model and a hatchback at the same time?

Yes. I posted earlier that people will moan with no rational reason this is one of them.

And people who moan about this in general, usually have no clue to the Delta's model line up anyhow.

For instance, there was the Delta HF 4wd, then the Integrale, then the Intregrale 16v and ALL were proper production models.



While on the subject of homologation it's interesting to note that the Clio Williams was also a homologation special, yet nobody ever claims no fair on it being a hot hatch