Greatest GT car
Discussion
I've not double checked to see if it's already been mentioned or not, but what about the BMW Z3M Coupe? I currently own a 2.8l Z3 and that's awesome, the Z3M Coupe is definitely on my wish list.
0-60 in around 5 seconds
300+ bhp
2 seats
Ample boot space
Surely it would be perfect for crunching miles across the continent?
0-60 in around 5 seconds
300+ bhp
2 seats
Ample boot space
Surely it would be perfect for crunching miles across the continent?
Osmoliver said:
I've not double checked to see if it's already been mentioned or not, but what about the BMW Z3M Coupe? I currently own a 2.8l Z3 and that's awesome, the Z3M Coupe is definitely on my wish list.
0-60 in around 5 seconds
300+ bhp
2 seats
Ample boot space
Surely it would be perfect for crunching miles across the continent?
51 litre fuel tank means the yellow light will come on every 180miles. And so on a long haul a very fast car becomes tedious and slow. It's 16 years since I've driven one but I also remember it as quite hard work to drive (but damned good fun). It's a play thing, not a GT.0-60 in around 5 seconds
300+ bhp
2 seats
Ample boot space
Surely it would be perfect for crunching miles across the continent?
GT is not about absolute performance: it's about easily making progress in refined and comfortable style.
andybu said:
Re the current Bentley Continental model, well, yes, I too had them pegged as "footballer's car" but I'm hoping that time, and the eventual workings of depreciation (which is of course the impecunious car enthusiasts' friend) will bring about a re-assessment of their image. I can readily agree that they are presently a bit too flash, safe in the knowledge that I can't afford one (yet) anyway. But, they are surprisingly compact and in V8 guise, quite wieldy..
Green paint, tan leather, plain silver wheels... I could be persuaded.r129sl said:
Osmoliver said:
I've not double checked to see if it's already been mentioned or not, but what about the BMW Z3M Coupe? I currently own a 2.8l Z3 and that's awesome, the Z3M Coupe is definitely on my wish list.
0-60 in around 5 seconds
300+ bhp
2 seats
Ample boot space
Surely it would be perfect for crunching miles across the continent?
51 litre fuel tank means the yellow light will come on every 180miles. And so on a long haul a very fast car becomes tedious and slow. It's 16 years since I've driven one but I also remember it as quite hard work to drive (but damned good fun). It's a play thing, not a GT.0-60 in around 5 seconds
300+ bhp
2 seats
Ample boot space
Surely it would be perfect for crunching miles across the continent?
GT is not about absolute performance: it's about easily making progress in refined and comfortable style.
Z3M is too twitchy for this application
The Porsche 928 deserves top marks as the greatest GT car for it's consummate ease of high speed motoring across continents. If ever there was a car designed to be driven fast across continents this has to be the one. A massive 5 litre V8 with lashings of horse power and tree pulling torque, matched up to a responsive 4 speed auto box and pretty much idiot proof handling, together with a straight line speed of over 165mph makes it pretty much invincible. It may be nearly 40 years old but it's still one of the fastest cars on the road today.
In terms of pure sportiness the 911 may be faster on paper, but you have to concentrate hard all the time when driving it so not so good for long distance driving, whereas the 928 is far more laid back and so well balanced. The driving position and visibility is excellent for a sporting car, and the seats are a joy to be sat in. The whole design has been built around providing the maximum luxury for the occupants with the minimum of fuss when driven fast, and everything fits just right and is solidly built.
I'm somewhat biased with my views because I've owned a 928 S4 for several years now and love it to bits, every time I start her up is a very enjoyable experience, the engine note and exhaust rumble is intoxicating. Being a 2+2 seater enables the wife and kids to go out on family outings, and the boot is plenty big enough for a few days away. My 928 averages just under 21 mpg, so is quite economical when driven with a little restraint.
The Porsche 928 has to one of the best contenders for driving across continents at high speeds with the minimum of drama, and for that reason, is why it deserves the top award for the greatest GT car ever.
In terms of pure sportiness the 911 may be faster on paper, but you have to concentrate hard all the time when driving it so not so good for long distance driving, whereas the 928 is far more laid back and so well balanced. The driving position and visibility is excellent for a sporting car, and the seats are a joy to be sat in. The whole design has been built around providing the maximum luxury for the occupants with the minimum of fuss when driven fast, and everything fits just right and is solidly built.
I'm somewhat biased with my views because I've owned a 928 S4 for several years now and love it to bits, every time I start her up is a very enjoyable experience, the engine note and exhaust rumble is intoxicating. Being a 2+2 seater enables the wife and kids to go out on family outings, and the boot is plenty big enough for a few days away. My 928 averages just under 21 mpg, so is quite economical when driven with a little restraint.
The Porsche 928 has to one of the best contenders for driving across continents at high speeds with the minimum of drama, and for that reason, is why it deserves the top award for the greatest GT car ever.
No, it really isn't. Fuel consumption and size of fuel tank on the Aston will mean you have to stop & refuel far too often and on a proper trans-Europe run that becomes downright annoying. Believe me, I've found this out in so many different cars...
Same for the BMW Z3M which was mentioned above. Fun car, yes. Proper GT and meets the brief in full? Not at all.
The thread is interesting because the minority of us who actually do this type of Grand Tourer driving do seem to be coalescing around the Porsche 928 as the best-ever GT in the real world and the XK-150 model Jaguar XK or XK-R as the more modern equivalent.
Dull reality actually says that if you want a 400+ mile fuel range and someting that'll cruise at 100mph all day then any modern diesel saloon or estate will deliver to that brief. My "workhorse" C-Class estate can do this all day long and anything from Audi/BMW/ like an S4 or 330d will meet the same brief. Not to mention that the combined offers from Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz and Air Berlin are killing off the original GT requirement anyway. But, they can't compete on the image, style and discreet presence that a proper GT embodies. It's a tiny market now and declining still but if you've always longed to own a GT then nothing else will do.
Same for the BMW Z3M which was mentioned above. Fun car, yes. Proper GT and meets the brief in full? Not at all.
The thread is interesting because the minority of us who actually do this type of Grand Tourer driving do seem to be coalescing around the Porsche 928 as the best-ever GT in the real world and the XK-150 model Jaguar XK or XK-R as the more modern equivalent.
Dull reality actually says that if you want a 400+ mile fuel range and someting that'll cruise at 100mph all day then any modern diesel saloon or estate will deliver to that brief. My "workhorse" C-Class estate can do this all day long and anything from Audi/BMW/ like an S4 or 330d will meet the same brief. Not to mention that the combined offers from Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz and Air Berlin are killing off the original GT requirement anyway. But, they can't compete on the image, style and discreet presence that a proper GT embodies. It's a tiny market now and declining still but if you've always longed to own a GT then nothing else will do.
Interestingly as another who does the European travel from time to time - Bruges, Normandy, Milan, Zurich, Madrid to name a few trips from the Garden of England - I agree with the JLR discussion.
However I have gone with the XFR option which blows the pedantic GT definition, but is ideal in the real world. Grace, pace and space; range is a little short but realistically on the coffee / toilet break time and distance. With the option of taking the kids. Smooth and comfortable too. I realise that seats are subjective but the Jaguar's have always been very comfortable (and after two discectomies, I really do care).
Having said that - next up is an Aston for me - the kids will need to find their own way.
And in my ideal world - absolutely a 550. How much do I rue buying the Jaguar and a Cateham rather than the Ferrari, 4 years ago? Ah well, first world problems and all that.
However I have gone with the XFR option which blows the pedantic GT definition, but is ideal in the real world. Grace, pace and space; range is a little short but realistically on the coffee / toilet break time and distance. With the option of taking the kids. Smooth and comfortable too. I realise that seats are subjective but the Jaguar's have always been very comfortable (and after two discectomies, I really do care).
Having said that - next up is an Aston for me - the kids will need to find their own way.
And in my ideal world - absolutely a 550. How much do I rue buying the Jaguar and a Cateham rather than the Ferrari, 4 years ago? Ah well, first world problems and all that.
andybu said:
No, it really isn't. Fuel consumption and size of fuel tank on the Aston will mean you have to stop & refuel far too often and on a proper trans-Europe run that becomes downright annoying. Believe me, I've found this out in so many different cars...
Same for the BMW Z3M which was mentioned above. Fun car, yes. Proper GT and meets the brief in full? Not at all.
The thread is interesting because the minority of us who actually do this type of Grand Tourer driving do seem to be coalescing around the Porsche 928 as the best-ever GT in the real world and the XK-150 model Jaguar XK or XK-R as the more modern equivalent.
Dull reality actually says that if you want a 400+ mile fuel range and someting that'll cruise at 100mph all day then any modern diesel saloon or estate will deliver to that brief. My "workhorse" C-Class estate can do this all day long and anything from Audi/BMW/ like an S4 or 330d will meet the same brief. Not to mention that the combined offers from Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz and Air Berlin are killing off the original GT requirement anyway. But, they can't compete on the image, style and discreet presence that a proper GT embodies. It's a tiny market now and declining still but if you've always longed to own a GT then nothing else will do.
Air travel used to be so glamorous but it is truly ghastly now. The biggest pain is the airport. Rip off parking, surly staff, a total absence of windows, wall-to-wall horrible shops and then... then the other people. Ugh. But the aeroplane experience is pretty grim, too: the problem there is the other people. And there is the absence of a journey. On road or rail, one experiences the changing landscape and changing climate; one has a sense of the distance passing below the wheels; and one feels a sense of achievement at arriving. On the road there is the possibility of a constant diversion to some interesting spot en route; there is the pleasure of dining and sleeping well; and then there is the freedom of being in charge. Same for the BMW Z3M which was mentioned above. Fun car, yes. Proper GT and meets the brief in full? Not at all.
The thread is interesting because the minority of us who actually do this type of Grand Tourer driving do seem to be coalescing around the Porsche 928 as the best-ever GT in the real world and the XK-150 model Jaguar XK or XK-R as the more modern equivalent.
Dull reality actually says that if you want a 400+ mile fuel range and someting that'll cruise at 100mph all day then any modern diesel saloon or estate will deliver to that brief. My "workhorse" C-Class estate can do this all day long and anything from Audi/BMW/ like an S4 or 330d will meet the same brief. Not to mention that the combined offers from Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz and Air Berlin are killing off the original GT requirement anyway. But, they can't compete on the image, style and discreet presence that a proper GT embodies. It's a tiny market now and declining still but if you've always longed to own a GT then nothing else will do.
Of course a modern six cylinder diseasel will do the job. But not in style; and the refinement is sadly lacking. There is a whole generation of motorists who have no idea just how refined multi-cylinder big petrol is. GT is not about just "doing the job": it is a whole lot more.
r129sl said:
Air travel used to be so glamorous but it is truly ghastly now. The biggest pain is the airport. Rip off parking, surly staff, a total absence of windows, wall-to-wall horrible shops and then... then the other people. Ugh. But the aeroplane experience is pretty grim, too: the problem there is the other people. And there is the absence of a journey. On road or rail, one experiences the changing landscape and changing climate; one has a sense of the distance passing below the wheels; and one feels a sense of achievement at arriving. On the road there is the possibility of a constant diversion to some interesting spot en route; there is the pleasure of dining and sleeping well; and then there is the freedom of being in charge.
Of course a modern six cylinder diseasel will do the job. But not in style; and the refinement is sadly lacking. There is a whole generation of motorists who have no idea just how refined multi-cylinder big petrol is. GT is not about just "doing the job": it is a whole lot more.
HEAR HEAR!! Of course a modern six cylinder diseasel will do the job. But not in style; and the refinement is sadly lacking. There is a whole generation of motorists who have no idea just how refined multi-cylinder big petrol is. GT is not about just "doing the job": it is a whole lot more.
r129sl said:
There is a whole generation of motorists who have no idea just how refined multi-cylinder big petrol is.
There is a whole generation who have no idea just how refined a petrol engine is full stop. Sure, some of the big diesels don't sound like tractors, but compared to a petrol they still ruin the luxury feel you get with a petrol. r129sl is quite right about the pleasures of using a GT properly. And I say that as someone who made his living in aviation over the last 30 years.. In semi-retirement I'm now down to only one definite continental trip per year and that's in March to the Geneva motor show. easyJet would get me there and back a lot faster but I'd miss out on the side detours to an interesting small town, or recommended place to eat, or some wine buying on the way back through France. A GT will also sometimes get you where you shouldn't be. One time in Italy we'd pitched up in the 928 at some small town of fthe autostrada to get lunch and look at some famous paintings in the local church. All up a steep hill & pedestrianised. However, as I rumbled into the local car park at the bottom of said hill the village bobbie appeared; some chat in pidgin Italian about the "bella machina" went on & then , with a wave and a big smile, the barrier was unlocked to the hill climb and we rumbled up all the way to the top & into a fabulous piazza; choice of three restaurants on the edge of the square and Michaelangelo or whoever had painted two massive wall paintings in the church. Magical afternoon.
Incidentally, you are a star in an XK Coupe in Italy. Ferraris, maserati, Lamborghini - two a penny but you will never make a pitstop or a lunchbreak halt without someone wanting to be shown round your GT. Last country in europe where admiring a nice motor is a national pastime.
Incidentally, you are a star in an XK Coupe in Italy. Ferraris, maserati, Lamborghini - two a penny but you will never make a pitstop or a lunchbreak halt without someone wanting to be shown round your GT. Last country in europe where admiring a nice motor is a national pastime.
k-ink said:
You don't want anything too cramped either. My old V12 XJS would have seemed like a fair GT on paper. The reality is not ideal as it was way too small inside.
While the 6.0 litre XJ81 (XJ40 shape) saloon would actually make a superb long distance GT. And enough room for 4 adults too.I also had the XJR X308. That had a lot more room so was a clear winner on that front. Although both had other issues, such as interior rattles, creaks, plus that ancient smell coming in through the air vents. Unless they were completely stripped, cleaned and rebuilt I'd rather be in a more modern car than either. They look good as driveway ornaments though.
I do Belgium-Denmark trips a few times a year, 1000 km, and what you need to actually do the "continent crushing" without being completely knackered when you arrive is the following:
- decent range even at elevated 180+ kph cruising speed, meaning a good-sized fuel tank and/or decent fuel economy
- sufficient horsepower to get up to cruising speed quickly once one of the inevitable Dutch drivers, or lorries has slowed you down to the 100 kph
- a long final drive to keep rpm down at cruising speed
- a quiet cabin and comfortable suspension at speed
That means that for any proper long distance driving the more exotic options listed are simply not realistic.
As boring as it may sound, and not strictly complying with the GT dictionary definition, but Grand Touring in the real sense of the word, would actually be... An Audi A8 4.2 TDI
If a 2 door is necessary, a BMW 640D.
- decent range even at elevated 180+ kph cruising speed, meaning a good-sized fuel tank and/or decent fuel economy
- sufficient horsepower to get up to cruising speed quickly once one of the inevitable Dutch drivers, or lorries has slowed you down to the 100 kph
- a long final drive to keep rpm down at cruising speed
- a quiet cabin and comfortable suspension at speed
That means that for any proper long distance driving the more exotic options listed are simply not realistic.
As boring as it may sound, and not strictly complying with the GT dictionary definition, but Grand Touring in the real sense of the word, would actually be... An Audi A8 4.2 TDI
If a 2 door is necessary, a BMW 640D.rassi said:
I do Belgium-Denmark trips a few times a year, 1000 km, and what you need to actually do the "continent crushing" without being completely knackered when you arrive is the following:
- decent range even at elevated 180+ kph cruising speed, meaning a good-sized fuel tank and/or decent fuel economy
- sufficient horsepower to get up to cruising speed quickly once one of the inevitable Dutch drivers, or lorries has slowed you down to the 100 kph
- a long final drive to keep rpm down at cruising speed
- a quiet cabin and comfortable suspension at speed
That means that for any proper long distance driving the more exotic options listed are simply not realistic.
Totally agree with your criteria - decent range even at elevated 180+ kph cruising speed, meaning a good-sized fuel tank and/or decent fuel economy
- sufficient horsepower to get up to cruising speed quickly once one of the inevitable Dutch drivers, or lorries has slowed you down to the 100 kph
- a long final drive to keep rpm down at cruising speed
- a quiet cabin and comfortable suspension at speed
That means that for any proper long distance driving the more exotic options listed are simply not realistic.
But my experience in Astons and the Mclaren don't fit your conclusion.
My Vantage S roadster did 1,250 miles from the Furka Pass to home in a day and we both got out the other end relaxed and comfortable.
Recently did just over 600 miles in a day in the McLaren spider in "normal" mode which has ride levels up there with any limo.
That's said they are both "Jekyll & Hyde" cars ie accomplished "grand tourers" which transform in to B road blasters at the flick of a switch
For me that is the perfect modern GT, demolishes the motorways then transforms in to a go kart for the twisties.
Hence why I spent the last 15 years doing 2-3 trips a year on European "Grand Tours"
As others have said Mile Munchers are NOT GT's IMHO it needs to be able to handle
BUT it must do BOTH well
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