Family Emergency. How fast would you go? Be honest.
Discussion
When my daughter was around 2 she woke with with real nasty rattly chest, seemingly virtually unable to breath. NHS Direct decided that an ambulance was needed. We were 30 minutes from the nearest hospital on a fowl windy night.
We had a first responder with us in about 5 minutes. Oxygen helped a lot. Somehow the Ambulance made it in 15 minutes. They must have been in a rush....
Fortunately this was our first experience of croup. We learn't how to deal with it so never had to go to this length again....
I'm really not sure that I would look at driving a loved one, rather than waiting for a 999 ambulance as a better option.
I live in fear of getting a call that I need to be at home now. I often work many miles from home.
We had a first responder with us in about 5 minutes. Oxygen helped a lot. Somehow the Ambulance made it in 15 minutes. They must have been in a rush....
Fortunately this was our first experience of croup. We learn't how to deal with it so never had to go to this length again....
I'm really not sure that I would look at driving a loved one, rather than waiting for a 999 ambulance as a better option.
I live in fear of getting a call that I need to be at home now. I often work many miles from home.
X5TUU said:
I'm amazed at the ignorance and blind trust placed in the ambulance and PTS services ... The response times are not good and if you look at the stats for what makes it to the most critical patients within the 8min response time you'll be surprised ... That's Assuming that you have conveyed the ailment effectively to the call handler and been assigned the highest priority call (it's a word search based tool) ... I've personally known of calls that should have been 8mins responders allocated to within 24hrs times ... I appreciate being clinical I have a different perspective but people need to open their eyes more ... Plus ambulances aren't legitimately allowed to speed, think about it, when was the last time you saw a a blue lighter ambulance blazing along to get to a patient (or hospital)
Certainly a lot of people seem to think they can work miracles - god help them the day they need to ring an ambulance.Response times, even for someone phoning through with chest pain and history of multiple heart attacks, etc, around here are okay half the time. The other 50% they're dire, as in an ambulance might turn up an hour later.
Thankfully the first-responders/paramedics around here are pretty good.
And even with blues on, they're still driving a top heavy, slow box with terrible suspension/ride quality, they don't go very fast - in fact I often beat them to the hospital, to the point where I'll have a couple of coffee's out of the vending machines sat waiting for the paramedics before they even pull up to A&E as I've already parked up, walked in and sat with a drink - and that's without speeding.
If it's not something they can stabilise before they set off the poor ride of the ambulances themselves don't help conditions either.
Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 4th May 23:38
3am, a convulsing 9 month child with suspected meningitis who had gone limp. I would have been more than happy to explain myself to any police officer who wanted to take me to court for touching 150 on an empty motorway - once they had caught up with me at the hospital. I'd do time for saving my child's life, if i was confident that i'd not put other peoples lives at unnecessary risk, im certain a genuine case would see only a lenient ban, something i would be more than happy to take on the chin.
GGibbo said:
A bit of a derail, but a rather heartwarming dit I once heard;
HM Forces do a lot of things very badly for their people, but what they always try to excel at is getting the guys home when they really need to be home.
I was told a dit of a chap in a FOB in Afghan, early on. Gets a phone message that his heavily pregnant wife is very much not well and he needs to get back asap. Tells chain of command, who escalate through the compassionate repatriation cell. He gets a chinook to get him to Bastion where there is a Royal flight BAE146 waiting. Only person on board, he is taken straight to Akrotiri, where there is a Tornado F3 waiting with a squipper to chuck some flying kit at him. He gets blasted over the med, refuelled and is in the UK a bit over 12 hours after he got he message. Which anyone who has been on a holiday to afghan will know is about 4 days shorter than normal. Makes it home to be at his wifes side.
Almost certainly some artistic licence used as the story has been passed about, but it seems M2.0 is the limit if you're really in a hurry!
I have heard stories, not as dramatic as this, but the military do look after their own in such circumstances. HM Forces do a lot of things very badly for their people, but what they always try to excel at is getting the guys home when they really need to be home.
I was told a dit of a chap in a FOB in Afghan, early on. Gets a phone message that his heavily pregnant wife is very much not well and he needs to get back asap. Tells chain of command, who escalate through the compassionate repatriation cell. He gets a chinook to get him to Bastion where there is a Royal flight BAE146 waiting. Only person on board, he is taken straight to Akrotiri, where there is a Tornado F3 waiting with a squipper to chuck some flying kit at him. He gets blasted over the med, refuelled and is in the UK a bit over 12 hours after he got he message. Which anyone who has been on a holiday to afghan will know is about 4 days shorter than normal. Makes it home to be at his wifes side.
Almost certainly some artistic licence used as the story has been passed about, but it seems M2.0 is the limit if you're really in a hurry!
I am a civvy but have worked a lot with the military. I was in a carrier that was operating in northern Scottish waters, but with no aircraft embarked. An RAF Sea King arrived, landed on and a chap from the ship climbed in.
The poor guy had some family emergency and the RAF got him to where he needed to be. No messing. Inter-service cooperation. I recall the emergency had a good conclusion too.
We didn't get to hospital in time for my mum. My wife drove us. She's a brilliant unflappable driver. We were brisk rather than incredibly fast. Driving like a loon through a city would likely have caused more problems - an unseen cyclist, an inattentive pedestrian could have turned a sad day into a tragedy. My mum was utterly practical and we'd actually said our goodbyes and squared things away the day before. We - my wife and I - both somehow knew we were not going to make it. The faces of the medical staff at the unit she was in told me all I needed to know.
If it was a case of getting someone I loved to hospital and 999 was not an option, I genuinely don't know how I would behave.
Black_S3 said:
Impasse said:
"Phone for an ambulance, love. I'll wait for you at the hospital."
Exactly. The police, paramedics or fire brigade will be there faster than you and better equipped to deal with the problem on arrival.and it doesn;t matter where the hospital / ambulance station / fire station is a lot of the time ... you don;t know where the nearest resource is the control centres do.
also it is very hard to do anything treatment wise at high speed , even with years of practice ...
danrst171 said:
Not to try and steer off topic, but what would be classed as a reason to speed? Obviously, the first thing that comes to mind with medical emergencies is that an ambulance should be called and you can't really help so there is no need to speed.
Taking a worst possible scenario, do the police allow you to "reasonably" speed to get to a dying loved one?
What other situations would be classed as an emergency? Obviously touching cloth on the M25 in heavy traffic allows use of the hard shoulder (jokes), but any serious suggestions?
if the use of the vehicle falls within one of the accepted exemptions , however i am unaware of any police ofrce which allows Constables to extend these exemptions and in the case of organisational policy i have seen a number of policies from all of the emergency services stating that they will not support staff who claim exemptions beyond their training / authorisations.Taking a worst possible scenario, do the police allow you to "reasonably" speed to get to a dying loved one?
What other situations would be classed as an emergency? Obviously touching cloth on the M25 in heavy traffic allows use of the hard shoulder (jokes), but any serious suggestions?
the ambulance purposes exemption has been tightened up dramtically in the light of what GMP deemed the continued abuse of blues by Manchester Hatzola .
HustleRussell said:
Does this happen in the real world?
Wouldn't it almost always be quicker to get a paramedic followed by Ambwilans?
there are few if any situations where even if you are present at the time and location of an incident that not calling 999 is the correct option ... Wouldn't it almost always be quicker to get a paramedic followed by Ambwilans?
an Ambulance RRV with a tech / paramedic or Nurse , Immediate Care Practitioner/ BASICS health Professional responder or the better trained community responders / retained fire fighter responders are far more use in a medical emergency in treating a patient at scene than untraiend drivers making headlong dashes to what may well be the incorrect A+E ...
Despite the FBU's shroud waving where ambulance response times to back up Community responders / RRV /BASICS are excessive there seems to be positve evidence coming from the work that Lincs FRS / LIVES (lincolnshire BASICS scheme) and EMAS are doing with upgrading retaiend fire fighter responders to ECA level and giving them actual ambulances so you aren't faced with the scenario of community responder / fire service responder and RRV paramedic sat on scene for prolonged periods awaiting an ambulance to travel from an A+E dept that may be 20 + miles away or from an Out of county Station ... I'm not sure if there has been any approach to the VASes looking at a retained crew model for rural areas building on planned support ( whether by volunteers or paid staff ) and 'footprinting' for events where the event resources are bolstered and respond to all 999s in the area not the event .
Getragdogleg said:
unsprung said:
+1
I might be disappointed in my wife if, in a true emergency, she would choose to prolong the situation by calling anybody apart from the skilled respondents waiting 24/7 at the other end of the emergency line.
Just tap three digits on your phone, et voila.
Where I live "wait for ambulance" = a half hour to just get to us if they are not busy and can send one from the nearest town, often the ambulance comes from the nearest available town so it could be an hour or more.I might be disappointed in my wife if, in a true emergency, she would choose to prolong the situation by calling anybody apart from the skilled respondents waiting 24/7 at the other end of the emergency line.
Just tap three digits on your phone, et voila.
Its always quicker to put the person in a car and DIY here.
unsprung said:
For those of you in rural locations where an ambulance will take more than, say, 15 minutes to respond... Nobody has an argument with your decision to drive to hospital, yourselves. And, given such a remote event, I'd probably drive as fast as I could with reasonable safety -- up to and beyond 100MPH if necessary.
Living in rural or frontier environments is a distinct experience and comes with additional responsibilities placed upon the individual. For example, people are warned when moving house to the state of Alaska, that they cannot expect services as usual. The state is adamant about this; they place warnings about this on their state "welcome" website. Some of the warnings are not for the faint of heart.
However, for anything urban, suburban and semi-rural -- at least in most of the US (sorry, that's where I am) -- placing that 911 call will initiate the fastest response.
Additionally I would like to mention that, depending upon the situation, getting to hospital may not be the best course of action. Sometimes, best practice would be for paramedics to stabilise the patient on-location. And even to perform some procedures on-location. Transport to hospital may not be via standard ambulance. Transport might be via air ambulance.
The query made by the OP is a useful one, and it's a good reminder to have a think about your own situation. In my case, and for the vast majority of my locations, that would be calling the three-digit emergency services line.
those suggesting it i nthe UK will be driving past sometimes dozens of resources that the ambulance can and will activate for life threatening calls ... Living in rural or frontier environments is a distinct experience and comes with additional responsibilities placed upon the individual. For example, people are warned when moving house to the state of Alaska, that they cannot expect services as usual. The state is adamant about this; they place warnings about this on their state "welcome" website. Some of the warnings are not for the faint of heart.
However, for anything urban, suburban and semi-rural -- at least in most of the US (sorry, that's where I am) -- placing that 911 call will initiate the fastest response.
Additionally I would like to mention that, depending upon the situation, getting to hospital may not be the best course of action. Sometimes, best practice would be for paramedics to stabilise the patient on-location. And even to perform some procedures on-location. Transport to hospital may not be via standard ambulance. Transport might be via air ambulance.
The query made by the OP is a useful one, and it's a good reminder to have a think about your own situation. In my case, and for the vast majority of my locations, that would be calling the three-digit emergency services line.
whether that;s 'fly car' in US terms (UK rapid response vehicle on standby in the area or a volunteer / staff responders responding from home , a fire / life boat / mountain rescue / coastguard / beach lifeguard responder or a member of an immediate care scheme ( doctors , nurses etc with additional pre-hospital care training and equipment to respond from home / where they are at that time )
X5TUU said:
I'm amazed at the ignorance and blind trust placed in the ambulance and PTS services ... The response times are not good and if you look at the stats for what makes it to the most critical patients within the 8min response time you'll be surprised ... That's Assuming that you have conveyed the ailment effectively to the call handler and been assigned the highest priority call (it's a word search based tool) ... I've personally known of calls that should have been 8mins responders allocated to within 24hrs times ... I appreciate being clinical I have a different perspective but people need to open their eyes more ... Plus ambulances aren't legitimately allowed to speed, think about it, when was the last time you saw a a blue lighter ambulance blazing along to get to a patient (or hospital)
you are talking rubbishEmergency ambulances belonging to any legitimate operator and rapid response vehicles working on behlf of NHS ambulance control are allowed to claim the speed limit exemptions
I would be interested to see your evidence with regard to 24 hour response claims ...
you also appear to totally ignore the existence of resources other than DMAs
boz1 said:
rxe said:
If I'd called an ambulance, it would have taken her to the local hospital where her brain would have died on a trolley. I drove her past that hospital and piled her into the nearest teaching hospital where they would have had the CT warmed up and a radiologist on site.
If you call 999 and describe symptoms of a stroke, in most areas they should now take you to the nearest stroke unit, not the nearest A&E of any sort, so you wouldn't actually be beating the system. e.g. "Since 2010, anyone suffering a stroke in London is taken to one of eight 24/7 Hyper Acute Stroke Units (HASUs) rather than the nearest hospital." https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0814/0608...In fact, this is yet another reason why people should not manically drive people to "hospital" themselves, because they might well not take them to the best place!
said:
Carving through A&E in the event of a "non-visible" emergency is far more important than carving through the traffic....
Fully agree with this.i've been told of people turning up at none A+E hospitals , including mental health units with people who needed an Full A+E
i've also ended up stabilisaing a patient at the 'wrong' entrance of the hospital and calling for an A+E ambulance as a HCP red to transfer that patient the quarter mile across the site to the ED...
never mind HASU , primary PCI for heart attacks, Major trauma units, preferred destinations based on speciality or lack thereof ...
i can think of a coupel of 'emergency departments' that say that above the door yet the ambulance service and the VASes are instructed that they should only take certain groups of patients there if they require stabilisation that cannot be provided by a paramedic crew and the air ambulance / MERIT / BASICS are further than the runnign time to the 'wrong' A+E )
nunpuncher said:
23rd December 2014. My son, then undergoing intense chemotherapy as an out patient, spiked a temperature in the middle of the night. As we were still learning how to deal with his illness at that point we phoned the main childrens hospital 30 miles away and asked what we should do. They told us to get him to the local hospital A&E (5 minutes away) ASAP as he needed antibiotics within 30 minutes.
We got their immediately and were put in a room. Eventually a doctor came down but as their was no paediatric ward at this hospital the doctor was unable to get a canula into such a young child. I remember watching the sweat dripping off his nose as he tried on our now unresponsive child. We had to call our ward doctors and have them talk the local hospital through what to do and what was to be administered. By the time they got the medicine up we were well over the 30 minutes,possibly over an hour and my son was more or less unresponsive. We then waited a further 6 hours to be taken by ambulance to the childrens hospital only 30 miles away. During the journey the paramedic told me they had been rushed off their feet with emergencies that weren't emergencies compared to this. I was shocked to hear of some of the things he had attended.
That night I learned that I would happily risk my license if it meant avoiding being in that position ever again.
of course with a proper care plan the ambulance would have blue lighted you to Children;s hospital in the first place ... We got their immediately and were put in a room. Eventually a doctor came down but as their was no paediatric ward at this hospital the doctor was unable to get a canula into such a young child. I remember watching the sweat dripping off his nose as he tried on our now unresponsive child. We had to call our ward doctors and have them talk the local hospital through what to do and what was to be administered. By the time they got the medicine up we were well over the 30 minutes,possibly over an hour and my son was more or less unresponsive. We then waited a further 6 hours to be taken by ambulance to the childrens hospital only 30 miles away. During the journey the paramedic told me they had been rushed off their feet with emergencies that weren't emergencies compared to this. I was shocked to hear of some of the things he had attended.
That night I learned that I would happily risk my license if it meant avoiding being in that position ever again.
PhillipM said:
X5TUU said:
I'm amazed at the ignorance and blind trust placed in the ambulance and PTS services ... The response times are not good and if you look at the stats for what makes it to the most critical patients within the 8min response time you'll be surprised ... That's Assuming that you have conveyed the ailment effectively to the call handler and been assigned the highest priority call (it's a word search based tool) ... I've personally known of calls that should have been 8mins responders allocated to within 24hrs times ... I appreciate being clinical I have a different perspective but people need to open their eyes more ... Plus ambulances aren't legitimately allowed to speed, think about it, when was the last time you saw a a blue lighter ambulance blazing along to get to a patient (or hospital)
Certainly a lot of people seem to think they can work miracles - god help them the day they need to ring an ambulance.Response times, even for someone phoning through with chest pain and history of multiple heart attacks, etc, around here are okay half the time. The other 50% they're dire, as in an ambulance might turn up an hour later.
Thankfully the first-responders/paramedics around here are pretty good.
And even with blues on, they're still driving a top heavy, slow box with terrible suspension/ride quality, they don't go very fast - in fact I often beat them to the hospital, to the point where I'll have a couple of coffee's out of the vending machines sat waiting for the paramedics before they even pull up to A&E as I've already parked up, walked in and sat with a drink - and that's without speeding.
If it's not something they can stabilise before they set off the poor ride of the ambulances themselves don't help conditions either.
Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 4th May 23:38
keegs111 said:
3am, a convulsing 9 month child with suspected meningitis who had gone limp. I would have been more than happy to explain myself to any police officer who wanted to take me to court for touching 150 on an empty motorway - once they had caught up with me at the hospital. I'd do time for saving my child's life, if i was confident that i'd not put other peoples lives at unnecessary risk, im certain a genuine case would see only a lenient ban, something i would be more than happy to take on the chin.
And how would you be "confident that you'd not put other people's lives at unnecessary risk"? What would constitute "necessary risk"? At what point would it be "necessary" for you to wipe out someone else's family?
This sort of attitude is extremely dangerous.
ruggedscotty said:
Ill put my hand up and say I drove like a t
t that day - Passing on the hardshoulder and using all sides of the road. I even ran down the A77 with the average cameras and never got a ticket. As said it was as fast as I could go. Using a verge to get through a line of traffic at the Raith with horn going etc... Just doing what I could. I dont think unless you have been there that you really appreciate just what it is that goes through your mind. You dont want to wait, you dont want any holdups, you just want to be there, you know it may be the last time that you will see them. You know that this is it. You dont get the call to get down there for nothing...
I know I must have updset someone as a few days later there was a chap at the door, and two traffic coppers stood there. Can we come in sir ? Is that your car sir ? Where where you on Saturday sir ? No agression but that serious way they seem to do so well, Yes you can, yes it is and I was making my way to Ayr on Saturday. I got a call from the hospice about my mother, One of them went away and made a few enquiries on the radio, the other one asking more questions about my driving. then the other one come back, story checked out. Very sorry to hear about this sir. And both just left, nothing else was said. nothing. Guess there is some discretion at times. I do know I probably wouldnt have stopped if the police had been behind me that day.
Just the way it is. When it comes down to it were human, and its our nearest and dearest that matter the most. Yes you can say it was irresponsible and that it was reckless. But was it ? Is it ? Do I drive like that normally ? Nope. Never.
I'm sure all that would be of enormous comfort to the family of someone you'd killed with that type of driving.t that day - Passing on the hardshoulder and using all sides of the road. I even ran down the A77 with the average cameras and never got a ticket. As said it was as fast as I could go. Using a verge to get through a line of traffic at the Raith with horn going etc... Just doing what I could. I dont think unless you have been there that you really appreciate just what it is that goes through your mind. You dont want to wait, you dont want any holdups, you just want to be there, you know it may be the last time that you will see them. You know that this is it. You dont get the call to get down there for nothing...I know I must have updset someone as a few days later there was a chap at the door, and two traffic coppers stood there. Can we come in sir ? Is that your car sir ? Where where you on Saturday sir ? No agression but that serious way they seem to do so well, Yes you can, yes it is and I was making my way to Ayr on Saturday. I got a call from the hospice about my mother, One of them went away and made a few enquiries on the radio, the other one asking more questions about my driving. then the other one come back, story checked out. Very sorry to hear about this sir. And both just left, nothing else was said. nothing. Guess there is some discretion at times. I do know I probably wouldnt have stopped if the police had been behind me that day.
Just the way it is. When it comes down to it were human, and its our nearest and dearest that matter the most. Yes you can say it was irresponsible and that it was reckless. But was it ? Is it ? Do I drive like that normally ? Nope. Never.
Of course, driving a little more spiritedly in an emergency would be understandable but some of the stories in this thread beggar belief.
zarjaz1991 said:
ruggedscotty said:
Ill put my hand up and say I drove like a tt that day - Passing on the hardshoulder and using all sides of the road. I even ran down the A77 with the average cameras and never got a ticket. As said it was as fast as I could go. Using a verge to get through a line of traffic at the Raith with horn going etc... Just doing what I could. I dont think unless you have been there that you really appreciate just what it is that goes through your mind. You dont want to wait, you dont want any holdups, you just want to be there, you know it may be the last time that you will see them. You know that this is it. You dont get the call to get down there for nothing...
I know I must have updset someone as a few days later there was a chap at the door, and two traffic coppers stood there. Can we come in sir ? Is that your car sir ? Where where you on Saturday sir ? No agression but that serious way they seem to do so well, Yes you can, yes it is and I was making my way to Ayr on Saturday. I got a call from the hospice about my mother, One of them went away and made a few enquiries on the radio, the other one asking more questions about my driving. then the other one come back, story checked out. Very sorry to hear about this sir. And both just left, nothing else was said. nothing. Guess there is some discretion at times. I do know I probably wouldnt have stopped if the police had been behind me that day.
Just the way it is. When it comes down to it were human, and its our nearest and dearest that matter the most. Yes you can say it was irresponsible and that it was reckless. But was it ? Is it ? Do I drive like that normally ? Nope. Never.
I'm sure all that would be of enormous comfort to the family of someone you'd killed with that type of driving.t that day - Passing on the hardshoulder and using all sides of the road. I even ran down the A77 with the average cameras and never got a ticket. As said it was as fast as I could go. Using a verge to get through a line of traffic at the Raith with horn going etc... Just doing what I could. I dont think unless you have been there that you really appreciate just what it is that goes through your mind. You dont want to wait, you dont want any holdups, you just want to be there, you know it may be the last time that you will see them. You know that this is it. You dont get the call to get down there for nothing...I know I must have updset someone as a few days later there was a chap at the door, and two traffic coppers stood there. Can we come in sir ? Is that your car sir ? Where where you on Saturday sir ? No agression but that serious way they seem to do so well, Yes you can, yes it is and I was making my way to Ayr on Saturday. I got a call from the hospice about my mother, One of them went away and made a few enquiries on the radio, the other one asking more questions about my driving. then the other one come back, story checked out. Very sorry to hear about this sir. And both just left, nothing else was said. nothing. Guess there is some discretion at times. I do know I probably wouldnt have stopped if the police had been behind me that day.
Just the way it is. When it comes down to it were human, and its our nearest and dearest that matter the most. Yes you can say it was irresponsible and that it was reckless. But was it ? Is it ? Do I drive like that normally ? Nope. Never.
Of course, driving a little more spiritedly in an emergency would be understandable but some of the stories in this thread beggar belief.
I have a rather different perspective as being the emergency vehicle (equine vet). Before anybody says 'it's only a horse' I have been called to incidents with loose horses near roads where major incidents could occur. Foalings require attendence in <30minutes for some chance of the foal surviving. In this country we are not permitted flashing green lights. However most 'emergencies ' I get called to are not true emergencies and this can be usually ascertained before setting out!
In true emergencies I do 'make progress'. I drive within my and the vehicles capabilities in NSLs and limits where there are no hazards (such as one set 1/2 mile away from the first house in a village; although even if it is a pointless 30 or 40mph I will not go much faster for licence retaining reasons). I generally know the roads well but massive speeds make little difference on single carriageway roads ime and dual carriageways are too likely to lead to licence and hence livelihood losing (even when- from an empty no junction autobahn situation- could be argued to be safe). The one thing that would make the most difference would be getting around the 40mph everywhere brigade.. but no flashing lights permitted.
Colleagues vary from driving like absolute t
ts (some anytime....) to 'making progress' to ridgely sticking to speed limits. I know of one driving on 15 points, another who had to stop locumming In Oz when the bans went country rather than statewide (amazing what Oz speed limits and attitude to speeding combined with horses with colicking horses 2 hours away can do to your licence!).
On topic 2 incidents. 1. Grandmother dying, 1 hour away. No risks taken, brisk motorway pace but nothing you don't see every day. Died before I got there but no regrets- definitely not worth putting lives at risk for that imo. I said goodbye to her afterwards.
2. Wife bleeding and going into labour. Briskly made progress, some flashing people out of the way but again calmly no silly risks taken. Got there and made to wait 15m then rushed over from midwife to dr maternity unit as baby poop in the waters.
You're no help to anyone if you kill yourself, some innocent bystander or even the person you're trying to save by taking a stupid risk!
Edited by mclwanB on Thursday 5th May 04:49
mph1977 said:
oh dear and then people wonder why many of the People who used to post on PH offering their genuinely professional experience backed up evidence etc stopped ...
Yes, because of people posting crap like this.I mean, I have no experience given in the region of 500 calls in the past few years, obviously.
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