Correct way to approach a dealer about 2nd hand car faults
Discussion
I bought a Seat Altea 1 month ago from a 2nd hand car dealer (look pretty reputable) for £4000. The car has now developed two faults.
The nearside rear door intermittently not open from the outside. Once opened from the inside it will work for a while then stop again. That's why I didn't spot it on a test drive. It's a known VW group fault with the door lock motor I believe.
An hour or so ago though the drivers door window has gone down and now won't go back up again. Again I think its a known VW group issue with the window regulator.
I've phoned the dealer and they have pointed me at the AA warranty with the car. Fair enough. I've got to take it to a garage near me for diagnosis (at my expense) on friday to see if they will authorise the work.
If they won't, what laws or regulations should I point the dealer at to get them to fix the car instead? I'd like to ensure I am on a firm legal footing before starting any conversation with them about it.
Or, do I have to suck it up and get the parts replaced myself? I'd hope not as whilst its not an expensive car, i do think these faults are likely to have been present when i bought the car.
It may all be for nothing, as the warranty company may sort it. However, my experience of such things does not fill me with confidence that they will.
The nearside rear door intermittently not open from the outside. Once opened from the inside it will work for a while then stop again. That's why I didn't spot it on a test drive. It's a known VW group fault with the door lock motor I believe.
An hour or so ago though the drivers door window has gone down and now won't go back up again. Again I think its a known VW group issue with the window regulator.
I've phoned the dealer and they have pointed me at the AA warranty with the car. Fair enough. I've got to take it to a garage near me for diagnosis (at my expense) on friday to see if they will authorise the work.
If they won't, what laws or regulations should I point the dealer at to get them to fix the car instead? I'd like to ensure I am on a firm legal footing before starting any conversation with them about it.
Or, do I have to suck it up and get the parts replaced myself? I'd hope not as whilst its not an expensive car, i do think these faults are likely to have been present when i bought the car.
It may all be for nothing, as the warranty company may sort it. However, my experience of such things does not fill me with confidence that they will.
If you've only had it a month the warranty company may say its down to the dealer to fix as his expense as it would argue (as should you) that the fault existed at the time of sale.
Either way as your ownership is so short dealer or warranty should cover the repair. If you paid using a credit card you have the CC company on the hook as well (even if it was only a small amount). Always worth doing just to get the extra muscle should you need it.
Either way as your ownership is so short dealer or warranty should cover the repair. If you paid using a credit card you have the CC company on the hook as well (even if it was only a small amount). Always worth doing just to get the extra muscle should you need it.
It's so soon after purchase that I wouldn't even bother with the useless warranty.
Speak to the dealer again. Remind them that they need to fix it. They have one chance now, if I remember correctly.
If they won't fix it, either put it down to experience or get some advice on your legal rights. Saying that, if the dealer is a scumbag, pursuing if legally may take you a long time and get you nowhere.
When will people learn that dealer added warranties of this nature are pretty worthless?
Speak to the dealer again. Remind them that they need to fix it. They have one chance now, if I remember correctly.
If they won't fix it, either put it down to experience or get some advice on your legal rights. Saying that, if the dealer is a scumbag, pursuing if legally may take you a long time and get you nowhere.
When will people learn that dealer added warranties of this nature are pretty worthless?
You can point him at the Consumer Rights Act.
I assume that neither of these faults would be considered acceptable by a judge on a second hand Altea valued at £4K? Because obviously if they are reasonable considering the age, mileage and price paid, then the dealer wouldn't be liable.
ETA - straight from Which-
"When you buy a second-hand car from a dealer, you have the right, under both the Consumer Rights Act (which replaces the Sale of Goods Act from 01 October 2015), to expect the car to:
*be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
If the second-hand car does not meet these requirements, you have the right to claim against the dealer for breach of contract."
To get anywhere with a claim under the law you'll need to show that a faulty door lock (which is recognised by your own admission as a common fault on the vehicle) and a faulty electric window are unreasonable and not to be expected on a car of this age.
I assume that neither of these faults would be considered acceptable by a judge on a second hand Altea valued at £4K? Because obviously if they are reasonable considering the age, mileage and price paid, then the dealer wouldn't be liable.
ETA - straight from Which-
"When you buy a second-hand car from a dealer, you have the right, under both the Consumer Rights Act (which replaces the Sale of Goods Act from 01 October 2015), to expect the car to:
*be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
- meet any description given to you when you were buying it ( whether in the advert or in discussions prior to sale)
If the second-hand car does not meet these requirements, you have the right to claim against the dealer for breach of contract."
To get anywhere with a claim under the law you'll need to show that a faulty door lock (which is recognised by your own admission as a common fault on the vehicle) and a faulty electric window are unreasonable and not to be expected on a car of this age.
Edited by Blue Oval84 on Tuesday 3rd May 21:34
Edited by Blue Oval84 on Tuesday 3rd May 21:34
bmw535i said:
The dealer is liable. You can try under the warranty, but if this fails, it doesn't affect your statutory rights and you should make the dealer sort it.
You think a faulty door lock and electric window render the car unfit for purpose, or are not reasonable on a car of it's age and value?CRA doesn't provide a bumper to bumper warranty, so where is the line drawn as to what's reasonable?
Blue Oval84 said:
bmw535i said:
The dealer is liable. You can try under the warranty, but if this fails, it doesn't affect your statutory rights and you should make the dealer sort it.
You think a faulty door lock and electric window render the car unfit for purpose, or are not reasonable on a car of it's age and value?CRA doesn't provide a bumper to bumper warranty, so where is the line drawn as to what's reasonable?
Blue Oval84 said:
You can point him at the Consumer Rights Act.
Not sure that what I said is any different to what you did.The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods— .
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied; .
(b)appearance and finish; .
(c)freedom from minor defects; .
(d)safety; .
(e)durability.
Door lock not working and window not opening = a minor defect, unsafe, not durable.
It's a £4k car, probably somewhere around 8yo. Would it be reasonable to expect a door handle and a window regulator to have a problem after eight years from new?
The window fault clearly wasn't there when purchased. The handle - well, maybe, maybe not.
The dealer's being absolutely fair with the warranty, and your chances of legal redress are iffy at best - are you willing to put the time, money and blood pressure into a claim?
The window fault clearly wasn't there when purchased. The handle - well, maybe, maybe not.
The dealer's being absolutely fair with the warranty, and your chances of legal redress are iffy at best - are you willing to put the time, money and blood pressure into a claim?
TooMany2cvs said:
It's a £4k car, probably somewhere around 8yo. Would it be reasonable to expect a door handle and a window regulator to have a problem after eight years from new?
The window fault clearly wasn't there when purchased. The handle - well, maybe, maybe not.
The dealer's being absolutely fair with the warranty, and your chances of legal redress are iffy at best - are you willing to put the time, money and blood pressure into a claim?
6 years old.The window fault clearly wasn't there when purchased. The handle - well, maybe, maybe not.
The dealer's being absolutely fair with the warranty, and your chances of legal redress are iffy at best - are you willing to put the time, money and blood pressure into a claim?
Window Fault was there when purchased as its a known issue that fails over time as the cable frays. You can't spot it until it starts to make a noise then fails. In my case, it made a noise, then failed straight away.
I doubt I'd take it to any court as the regulator is around £110 and the door lock around £50 for the parts and I can probably do them myself. I just wanted to see what redress I really have so I can at least try to push them on it to begin with. I'll only push it so far though.
JonnyO said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's a £4k car, probably somewhere around 8yo. Would it be reasonable to expect a door handle and a window regulator to have a problem after eight years from new?
The window fault clearly wasn't there when purchased. The handle - well, maybe, maybe not.
The dealer's being absolutely fair with the warranty, and your chances of legal redress are iffy at best - are you willing to put the time, money and blood pressure into a claim?
6 years old.The window fault clearly wasn't there when purchased. The handle - well, maybe, maybe not.
The dealer's being absolutely fair with the warranty, and your chances of legal redress are iffy at best - are you willing to put the time, money and blood pressure into a claim?
bmw535i said:
Not sure that what I said is any different to what you did.
The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods— .
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied; .
(b)appearance and finish; .
(c)freedom from minor defects; .
(d)safety; .
(e)durability.
Door lock not working and window not opening = a minor defect, unsafe, not durable.
I go by this bloke. Obviously knows his stuff.The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods— .
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied; .
(b)appearance and finish; .
(c)freedom from minor defects; .
(d)safety; .
(e)durability.
Door lock not working and window not opening = a minor defect, unsafe, not durable.
My advice with regards to second hand car dealers is to be a bit flexible. Whilst this bloke is obviously liable for both faults, he will possibly try to lower his outgoings.
Perhaps if you go in with the full cost of replacement to both parts at you local garage. If he wants to negotiate then ask him what he is offering. To be fair, you will end up with new parts. If you are happy to fit both items yourself then perhaps asking the chap to supply the items might be a fairish result.
Don't mention the law!
Both of those faults can be fixed using new, genuine parts for £400 inclusive of labour.
I think it's reasonable to expect some faults - I would approach your supplying dealer and say you're trying to be nice about it but under whatever regulations it is, you'd like them fixed.
Although the AA warranty should also pay for the repairs.
I think it's reasonable to expect some faults - I would approach your supplying dealer and say you're trying to be nice about it but under whatever regulations it is, you'd like them fixed.
Although the AA warranty should also pay for the repairs.
TooMany2cvs said:
It's a £4k car, probably somewhere around 8yo. Would it be reasonable to expect a door handle and a window regulator to have a problem after eight years from new?
On the flip side, would not be reasonable to expect the the door handles and windows to work on a car?TooMany2cvs said:
The window fault clearly wasn't there when purchased. The handle - well, maybe, maybe not.
So it's your position that if the faults were not present on the day you purchased the vehicle then that's your bad luck?If the faults develop a month after purchase then the selling dealer still has a responsibility to fix the car - They can't just wash their hands of it.
It can be argued that by buying an 8 year old car, the OP has to accept that there was always going to be an element of risk of the car developing a fault.
Again though, on the flip side it could be argued that the dealer has to accept that by selling 8 year old cars, there was always going to be an element of risk of that the cars could develop faults that they may have to pay to have fixed for their customers.
TooMany2cvs said:
The dealer's being absolutely fair with the warranty, and your chances of legal redress are iffy at best - are you willing to put the time, money and blood pressure into a claim?
The dealer is not "being absolutely fair" if they are using the warranty company to wash their hands of any responsibility for the car once sold.They can't simply say: "Deal with the warranty company and if they wont pay then it's your tough s
t!"The OP hasn't mentioned the dealer offering any options for repair if the warranty company refuse to pay for any required repairs, which to Me at least, implies that the dealer's are using the warranty to wash their hands of any responsibility for repairs to the car.
If a dealer did that to you when it came to a fault on a car, would you just sit back and say: "Fair enough"? - I suspect not!
4rephill said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It's a £4k car, probably somewhere around 8yo. Would it be reasonable to expect a door handle and a window regulator to have a problem after eight years from new?
On the flip side, would not be reasonable to expect the the door handles and windows to work on a car?But you forget something - the legal rights of any buyer of any used goods are tempered by reasonable expectations for a product of that age, price and apparent quality.
Well it's certainly a minefield isn't it 
As I say, the bits are not so expensive that I'm willing to spend time and effort on any legal redress.
However, I am willing to exert some pressure over the next few days if it might get me somewhere. I was just wondering what buttons to press really.
My experience of such warranties is that they will say these are not items that are covered. You never know, I might be pleasantly surprised but i doubt it.
My impression from the dealer is that they have my money and just want me gone. That's fair enough I guess but if they are supposed to have some responsibility to me then I'd like them to honour it.
After all, it may only be a £4k car, but its only 6 and a half years old with a FSH and 79k on the clock. Not a snotter and I'd really expect a car to have doors that can be opened by the handle and windows that don't let the rain in.
As I say, the bits are not so expensive that I'm willing to spend time and effort on any legal redress.
However, I am willing to exert some pressure over the next few days if it might get me somewhere. I was just wondering what buttons to press really.
My experience of such warranties is that they will say these are not items that are covered. You never know, I might be pleasantly surprised but i doubt it.
My impression from the dealer is that they have my money and just want me gone. That's fair enough I guess but if they are supposed to have some responsibility to me then I'd like them to honour it.
After all, it may only be a £4k car, but its only 6 and a half years old with a FSH and 79k on the clock. Not a snotter and I'd really expect a car to have doors that can be opened by the handle and windows that don't let the rain in.
Edited by JonnyO on Wednesday 4th May 10:58
TooMany2cvs said:
They did when the OP bought it.
But you forget something - the legal rights of any buyer of any used goods are tempered by reasonable expectations for a product of that age, price and apparent quality.
But you forget something - the legal rights of any buyer of any used goods are tempered by reasonable expectations for a product of that age, price and apparent quality.
JonnyO said:
Window Fault was there when purchased
(2)The quality of goods is satisfactory if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactorySo would a reasonable person expect that when buying a car for £4000 the windows and door locks should work for more than a month?
Yes.
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