RE: Golf GTI Clubsport S 'ring record

[anonymous-user]

WCZ said:

yep, if anything the actual 'production car' will be slightly more capable (for the price of safety) due to not having a 25+kg roll cage!

also it's funny how attitudes change here, when the mk1 R26R broke the record most were in full praise of the car and its now a cult car.

I don't understand how petrolheads can't see the appeal of this anymore.

So what lap time are we going gush about when the car has passengers and a bit of luggage, oh, and normal tyres plus a full tank of fuel?

It's nonsense. Pure marketing.

[rb5er]

WCZ said:

also it's funny how attitudes change here, when the mk1 R26R broke the record most were in full praise of the car and its now a cult car.

I don't understand how petrolheads can't see the appeal of this anymore.

I don't think attitudes have really changed as per the thread below. A 2door hot hatch has always had criticisms The fact that this car is £12k more expensive only 5 years later is a bit of a sticking point also.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=116...

[thegreenhell]

RacerMike said:

thegreenhell said:

CraigyMc said:

Interesting lateral G-loads the video shows... and by interesting I mean "well out of the expected range".

Not really. Most of the corners there have very favourable camber. I've consistently seen 1.5G cornering recorded on the PBox in my Elise on normal road tyres around there.

Hmmm....Elise perhaps, but a 1300-1400kg hatch? As a comparison, our Aston GT4 car on brand new Avon slicks was about 1.3G sustained and that weighed about 1300-1400kg. Pilot Sport Cup2s aren't a huge way off, but 1.2G is VERY punchy for a road tyre....

It's not that uncommon for 'Special' tyres to be used in these record attempts. I'm not 100% calling foul play, but......

As I said, it's just the effect of the camber in the track. If you ever get the chance to walk the track (summer evenings after the track has closed are great for this) then you will be amazed at how steeply banked many of the corners are. It doesn't really come across in the videos. I can get much higher G readings there than at any other track, using the same tyres and car setup.

[Porsche911R]

yonex said:

So what lap time are we going gush about when the car has passengers and a bit of luggage, oh, and normal tyres plus a full tank of fuel?

It's nonsense. Pure marketing.

Shows what it can do, I am all for it.

[CraigyMc]

thegreenhell said:

RacerMike said:

thegreenhell said:

CraigyMc said:

Interesting lateral G-loads the video shows... and by interesting I mean "well out of the expected range".

Not really. Most of the corners there have very favourable camber. I've consistently seen 1.5G cornering recorded on the PBox in my Elise on normal road tyres around there.

Hmmm....Elise perhaps, but a 1300-1400kg hatch? As a comparison, our Aston GT4 car on brand new Avon slicks was about 1.3G sustained and that weighed about 1300-1400kg. Pilot Sport Cup2s aren't a huge way off, but 1.2G is VERY punchy for a road tyre....

It's not that uncommon for 'Special' tyres to be used in these record attempts. I'm not 100% calling foul play, but......

As I said, it's just the effect of the camber in the track. If you ever get the chance to walk the track (summer evenings after the track has closed are great for this) then you will be amazed at how steeply banked many of the corners are. It doesn't really come across in the videos. I can get much higher G readings there than at any other track, using the same tyres and car setup.

The video shows 1.7 lateral G at various points.

This is a Golf, not a P1 in Race Mode on Trofeo R's.

[Black_S3]

Kawasicki said:

Huh?

My point is that it is easier to build a focused/quick car when you don't need to consider the 1,000,001 requirements that a manufacturer needs to.

What's your point?

My point is it's a 310bhp, factory built, limited production, caged 2 seater, on cup tyres, costing over 40k driven by a professional. All things considered I'd expect it to be faster.

[RacerMike]

thegreenhell said:

RacerMike said:

thegreenhell said:

CraigyMc said:

Interesting lateral G-loads the video shows... and by interesting I mean "well out of the expected range".

Not really. Most of the corners there have very favourable camber. I've consistently seen 1.5G cornering recorded on the PBox in my Elise on normal road tyres around there.

Hmmm....Elise perhaps, but a 1300-1400kg hatch? As a comparison, our Aston GT4 car on brand new Avon slicks was about 1.3G sustained and that weighed about 1300-1400kg. Pilot Sport Cup2s aren't a huge way off, but 1.2G is VERY punchy for a road tyre....

It's not that uncommon for 'Special' tyres to be used in these record attempts. I'm not 100% calling foul play, but......

As I said, it's just the effect of the camber in the track. If you ever get the chance to walk the track (summer evenings after the track has closed are great for this) then you will be amazed at how steeply banked many of the corners are. It doesn't really come across in the videos. I can get much higher G readings there than at any other track, using the same tyres and car setup.

I've done about 700-1000 laps in road cars, and we never see anywhere near 1.2G, even on the softer compound tyres. And the 'Ring certainly isn't significantly more cambered than somewhere like Oulton Park. Increased camber also doesn't exhibit itself as higher lateral acceleration as the camber results in a higher Z component, but not Y. You can actually see this in the section when the car goes around the Karussel where Lat Acc is still 1.2g.

[Black_S3]

tyres are pilot sport cups... Pushing the limit of a road tyre.

[thegreenhell]

RacerMike said:

I've done about 700-1000 laps in road cars, and we never see anywhere near 1.2G, even on the softer compound tyres. And the 'Ring certainly isn't significantly more cambered than somewhere like Oulton Park. Increased camber also doesn't exhibit itself as higher lateral acceleration as the camber results in a higher Z component, but not Y. You can actually see this in the section when the car goes around the Karussel where Lat Acc is still 1.2g.

Doesn't that depend on the method of G measurement? If measuring directly with an accelerometer then I agree with you, but a GPS-based system would simply calculate from horizontal speed around a corner of a given radius and totally ignore any Z-component. GPS can't tell if the corner is banked, and as you would be traveling faster than in a flat corner it gives a higher G reading. Speed around the Karussel I would expect to be compromised by the bumpy nature of the concrete surface, so not a true reflection of the effects of banking in a corner.

I am assuming from your comments that you use a more professional, accelerometer-based system, whereas the Golf had a GPS-based system, similar in nature the PBox I use in my car.

[BaronVonVaderham]

ZX10R NIN said:

So would that make the Trophy R Megane the actual production car record holder as that came with the roll cage?

Yup as it's the only one you can buy in the EXACT same spec as the record holding car.

Renaultsport still hold the crown

[Kawasicki]

Black_S3 said:

Kawasicki said:

Huh?

My point is that it is easier to build a focused/quick car when you don't need to consider the 1,000,001 requirements that a manufacturer needs to.

What's your point?

My point is it's a 310bhp, factory built, limited production, caged 2 seater, on cup tyres, costing over 40k driven by a professional. All things considered I'd expect it to be faster.

It's a golf. The lap time is a bit quicker than Renault managed with the same formula. What time would you be impressed with?

[epom]

Porsche911R said:

yonex said:

So what lap time are we going gush about when the car has passengers and a bit of luggage, oh, and normal tyres plus a full tank of fuel?

It's nonsense. Pure marketing.

Shows what it can do, I am all for it.

Yep and 12 pages of a thread dedicated to the car shows the marketing is working :-)

[JMF894]

WCZ said:

HorneyMX5 said:

Er, the Honda also had a roll cage fitted for their record runs, as did the Seat. I. Fact I would expect all these cars will be running cages from now on due to the speeds they're travelling at and the manufacturers responsibility for the health and safety of those attempting the record.

yep, if anything the actual 'production car' will be slightly more capable (for the price of safety) due to not having a 25+kg roll cage!

also it's funny how attitudes change here, when the mk1 R26R broke the record most were in full praise of the car and its now a cult car.

I don't understand how petrolheads can't see the appeal of this anymore.

Well I for one didn't! I remember questioning the point and relevance of a two seater hot hatchback.

And I still do.

[J4CKO]

why not just use race slicks and forget any idea of road tyres ?

[Black_S3]

Kawasicki said:

It's a golf. The lap time is a bit quicker than Renault managed with the same formula. What time would you be impressed with?

But you cant walk into any VW dealership and buy one, unlike the Renault which is a fair bit cheaper anyway... I'd potentially buy the Renault, even if this was for sale I wouldn't consider it simply because it's not got enough over the Golf R. Anyway pointless arguing over opinions.

[MrBarry123]

J4CKO said:

why not just use race slicks and forget any idea of road tyres ?

Because it proves the car can perform at this level on road tyres - tyres that are readily available and are priced from £107 (17" wheel size).

[anonymous-user]

epom said:

Yep and 12 pages of a thread dedicated to the car shows the marketing is working :-)

I'm not buying one, you?

It seems like a extraordinary amount of money for what it is. Especially when this time is likely fudged in all number of ways

[BeirutTaxi]

MrBarry123 said:

Love it. Love it. Love it.

1 second off the M3 GTS!

Very impressive.

I find that hard to believe, look at the speed of the GTS E92

https://youtu.be/jFroPYlmODk

[greenarrow]

BaronVonVaderham said:

ZX10R NIN said:

So would that make the Trophy R Megane the actual production car record holder as that came with the roll cage?

Yup as it's the only one you can buy in the EXACT same spec as the record holding car.

Renaultsport still hold the crown

I agree, Renault are the only manufacturer to have sold the Nurburgring spec car as a road car, although, cant you buy the Seat with the actual pack? Seem to recall an EVO test with one the other month...has the big brakes, tyres etc.

TBH all these lap times worry me, because it means a car set up to be so stable at Nurburgring velocities probably wont start really coming alive at typical English B road speeds. No more cocking a back wheel like the old Mk2 Golf! Is there any point in a hot hatch that needs to be doing 120 before it starts "moving around"..?

[anonymous-user]

If it's set up for the track it'll be moving around a fair bit on the road They should benchmark at the IOM, but then we all know bikes are faster etc etc

😜