Bad driving instructors
Discussion
snorky782 said:
X5TUU said:
Years ago I worked for a company that did this, it was because they lowered insurance costs for the company fleet by having a £15k excess on each incident meaning in effect they just a new vehicle when one got crashed and it was almost like a misplaced assurance for management on staff capability
I don't think you understand which part of car insurance is compulsory and why. That's worrying for someone who apparently has a lot of years experience. *Al* said:
Last week I has an 'AA' driving instructor pull out on me (I was on my motorbike) from a side road on my local streets (30 mph), not big deal I saw him but he never looked or indicated so I had the time to stop and politely ask what he was doing? He flatly denied it and said I was speeding! I wasn't as I'd just turned into the road I was on, he hadn't looked or indicated. If I was speeding he must have seen me but was having none of it, if he would have just put his hand up at the time I would have gone around him and that would have been the end of it but he chose to argue like he could never be at fault which he obviously was. He was on his own and not with a pupil.
I had a similar encounter luckly I was quick witted enough to ask Where is your instructor ???
I'm a former ADI. Having read the OP, there's no way that she would have passed a driving test coasting like that.
It's probably something she picked up after passing. I was always amazed to see/hear some of the things people did after they passed their test and couldn't be persuaded that it was wrong.
Tim
It's probably something she picked up after passing. I was always amazed to see/hear some of the things people did after they passed their test and couldn't be persuaded that it was wrong.
Tim
deltashad said:
I hate the 'new to me' driving style in the UK.
Possibly this is the new method. The first experience, apart from the piss poor driving and lane discipline i've witnessed was my companies annual driving test, compulsory for driving a company vehicle. I was told to strictly abide by speed limits, yes, I understand this, but not always road user friendly going from a 60 to a 30. What really got me was being told to maintain road speed limits even on a dual carriage way, restricted to the outside lane and not exceeding the speed limit, obviously annoying the hell out of other drivers, when I questioned, the answer was- I was staying away from hazards- people pulling out from junctions etc.... utter BS.
Anyway, my gf just passed her driving test, the biggest problem I have is with how she was told to approach and go around round abouts, and junctions. This is with her foot on the clutch all the way until exited and safe. Basically have NO engine braking control. She passed her test and still has this awful habit and does not trust me that this is incredibly dangerous and just wrong. She has no drive, coasting.
Can I please have some agreement on this.
When I learnt to drive four years ago (I was 32, I know....) the Driving school I went with paired me up with an older guy 'because we would get on' turned out to be a touch as he really knew his stuff and ingrained a lot of 'advanced driver' type stuff (As well as smaller things like not hovering with the clutch slightly in around junctions.) - he used to say 'bloody well get on with it' a lot when overtaking or being in the RHLPossibly this is the new method. The first experience, apart from the piss poor driving and lane discipline i've witnessed was my companies annual driving test, compulsory for driving a company vehicle. I was told to strictly abide by speed limits, yes, I understand this, but not always road user friendly going from a 60 to a 30. What really got me was being told to maintain road speed limits even on a dual carriage way, restricted to the outside lane and not exceeding the speed limit, obviously annoying the hell out of other drivers, when I questioned, the answer was- I was staying away from hazards- people pulling out from junctions etc.... utter BS.
Anyway, my gf just passed her driving test, the biggest problem I have is with how she was told to approach and go around round abouts, and junctions. This is with her foot on the clutch all the way until exited and safe. Basically have NO engine braking control. She passed her test and still has this awful habit and does not trust me that this is incredibly dangerous and just wrong. She has no drive, coasting.
Can I please have some agreement on this.
Edited by deltashad on Sunday 8th May 02:38
CAnt imagine what sort of daft instructor would ask someone to STAY in the RHL to 'avoid hazards' (Its one thing to move out temporarily if theres a car in the hard shoulder etc.) but then nothing surprises me when I look at the standard of driving on the road sometimes....
FreeLitres said:
deltashad said:
... my companies annual driving test, compulsory for driving a company vehicle...
Never heard of this before. I've had various jobs that include a company car including my current one. Have you had a lot of colleagues crashing company cars or something? Is this is a requirement of the insurance company?
And yes, we are told to stay out of L1 by our commentary drive instructors.
deltashad said:
They are very serious. We have a satellite monitoring system, (VDO) I won't go into it in big details but it's a huge deal with us. We get beeps for all sorts, which add up to a points system which can end up in termination.
And yes, we are told to stay out of L1 by our commentary drive instructors.
The fantastic VDO monitoring system. Not a day goes by when a driver isn't hauled in to the Fleet Moron for a rollicking.And yes, we are told to stay out of L1 by our commentary drive instructors.
Fleet Moron: "Telematics showed you as speeding at 56mph on a residential street. I'm going to start an investigation."
Employee: "Where and when?"
Fleet Moron: "Doesn't matter, it's recorded you..."
Employee: "Show me the proof."
Fleet Moron: "It's always right."
Fleet Moron Manager begrudgingly brings up the details.
Fleet Moron: "There. On Acacia Avenue in Wibblestown. 30mph zone. You're doing 56mph..."
Employee: "I'm on the A123 flyover that passes over Acacia Avenue you tard... 60mph dual carriageway... and in any case for me to speed I'd have to drive the truck down a 80 ft embankment... "mouths prick]"
deltashad said:
I was told to strictly abide by speed limits, yes, I understand this, but not always road user friendly going from a 60 to a 30.
But it's been this way since 1935. If you have been driving so long that this is "new to you" then you have been driving long enough that you wouldn't have needed to pass a driving test anyway The speed limit signs are there to indicate when the limit begins, not when you should start decelerating. Lift off and slow down before you reach the sign, and use the brakes to augment this if required. The reverse applies to accelerating after entering a new limit.
When people use the limit signs to start braking, that's when the council starts doing crap like graduating the speed limits so going the other way you end up with a bit of 30, then 40, then NSL. They did it round here on a couple of my favourite "get to the derestrictor at 30mph then go like hell" roads.
That "stick in the outside lane just in case someone comes out of a junction" thing is stupid though - was there anything coming down the slip when he asked you to do that, or was it a blanket "Always reduce the size of the carriageway by one lane if there is a slip road"? It defeats the whole object of a sliproad if that is the case, otherwise they may as well just convert every sliproad to become its own lane as a matter of course.
KM666 said:
There seems to have been a bit of a shift in technique lately. Our fleet board penalises us for engine braking, relying solely on the foot brake doesnt seem like a great idea in an LGV.
Ironically, a new automatic DAF that I drove the other day penalised me (in dash scoring) for NOT engine braking.With regards to your experience: a driver who doesn't use the engine brake is a liability, rather like these assessors... Id ask whether they realise that the vehicle has an exhaust retarder which a competent driver should use and that driving without it would define the driver as incompetent and be downright unsafe?
donkmeister said:
deltashad said:
I was told to strictly abide by speed limits, yes, I understand this, but not always road user friendly going from a 60 to a 30.
But it's been this way since 1935. If you have been driving so long that this is "new to you" then you have been driving long enough that you wouldn't have needed to pass a driving test anyway The speed limit signs are there to indicate when the limit begins, not when you should start decelerating. Lift off and slow down before you reach the sign, and use the brakes to augment this if required. The reverse applies to accelerating after entering a new limit.
When people use the limit signs to start braking, that's when the council starts doing crap like graduating the speed limits so going the other way you end up with a bit of 30, then 40, then NSL. They did it round here on a couple of my favourite "get to the derestrictor at 30mph then go like hell" roads.
That "stick in the outside lane just in case someone comes out of a junction" thing is stupid though - was there anything coming down the slip when he asked you to do that, or was it a blanket "Always reduce the size of the carriageway by one lane if there is a slip road"? It defeats the whole object of a sliproad if that is the case, otherwise they may as well just convert every sliproad to become its own lane as a matter of course.
No there was nothing in L2. This is the rules, they call it 'protecting your space'.
Now I've heard of people in the past talking about using the brakes instead of engine braking, which I find to be a wrong way of driving. But some seem to think this is a good method.
My gf is adamant the instructor insists not use the 'gearbox' or engine for braking. Encouraged to 'coast' around corners and round abouts with her foot on the clutch. I just find it all a bit bizarre. This also ends up with a near stall when passed the round about as she clumsily looks for the correct gear.
FreeLitres said:
Never heard of this before. I've had various jobs that include a company car including my current one.
Have you had a lot of colleagues crashing company cars or something? Is this is a requirement of the insurance company?
My company do a driving assessment every year for people driving a company vehicle. I've done it five or six times now. It isn't full driving test stuff, and it isn't anything complicated, they just want to assess how you handle the vehicle at speed, how you react to other traffic, and how well you can reverse it into tight spaces. You have to do one for each class of vehicle you drive for the company aso I have three. `each one takes no more than half an hour, it's not strenuous or challenging if you know how to drive. They are handled by local road safety training providers, rather than in house. I've never 'failed' but if you don't meet the required standard you are simply put in for some driver training they don't take you straight off the road or anything.Have you had a lot of colleagues crashing company cars or something? Is this is a requirement of the insurance company?
deltashad said:
No there was nothing in L2. This is the rules, they call it 'protecting your space'.
Always younger (typical pass age) drivers and they certainly seem to regard it as their rightful place. Along the outside lane, around a roundabout and off onto the second lane again with two miles of clear nearside all around them.
We teach people to use the brakes to slow the car down, that's what they are there for, using engine breaking wouldn't be something the examiner would like to see a learner do I'm afraid. And as for coasting, as I've said I'd be very surprised to see an instructor teach someone to keep their clutch down around a corner and bring it up afterwards, it's a sure fire way of not passing your test!
vikingaero said:
The fantastic VDO monitoring system. Not a day goes by when a driver isn't hauled in to the Fleet Moron for a rollicking.
Fleet Moron: "Telematics showed you as speeding at 56mph on a residential street. I'm going to start an investigation."
Employee: "Where and when?"
Fleet Moron: "Doesn't matter, it's recorded you..."
Employee: "Show me the proof."
Fleet Moron: "It's always right."
Fleet Moron Manager begrudgingly brings up the details.
Fleet Moron: "There. On Acacia Avenue in Wibblestown. 30mph zone. You're doing 56mph..."
Employee: "I'm on the A123 flyover that passes over Acacia Avenue you tard... 60mph dual carriageway... and in any case for me to speed I'd have to drive the truck down a 80 ft embankment... "mouths prick]"
Complete nonsense. I deal with loads of fleet managers and none of them would ever have a conversation anything like this. Telematics are an aid, not the last word. And the company needs its drivers, so need to work with them and make them part of the process, not treat them like the enemy.Fleet Moron: "Telematics showed you as speeding at 56mph on a residential street. I'm going to start an investigation."
Employee: "Where and when?"
Fleet Moron: "Doesn't matter, it's recorded you..."
Employee: "Show me the proof."
Fleet Moron: "It's always right."
Fleet Moron Manager begrudgingly brings up the details.
Fleet Moron: "There. On Acacia Avenue in Wibblestown. 30mph zone. You're doing 56mph..."
Employee: "I'm on the A123 flyover that passes over Acacia Avenue you tard... 60mph dual carriageway... and in any case for me to speed I'd have to drive the truck down a 80 ft embankment... "mouths prick]"
You may think the conversation goes as you've described, but the reality is completely different.
Coasting was a big no-no when I used to instruct (DSA/RosPa) but student drivers often make up their own minds as to what it is an instructor actually means. Coasting all the way around a roundabout sounds utterly impractical, anyway. :-)
Drivers with acquired 'bad' habits are reluctant to change them if they have got away with them for years, especially if it involves accepting advice from family and friends.
The thing about exiting roundabouts in lane 2 was utterly frowned upon by our local DSA examiner, who would pull ADI's out of the test queue if the student said 'He taught me that' but it was often taught by RoSPA.
Others say that local knowledge, lane markings and conditions will alter 'absolute advice' on the roads re-exiting in lane 2.
Drivers with acquired 'bad' habits are reluctant to change them if they have got away with them for years, especially if it involves accepting advice from family and friends.
The thing about exiting roundabouts in lane 2 was utterly frowned upon by our local DSA examiner, who would pull ADI's out of the test queue if the student said 'He taught me that' but it was often taught by RoSPA.
Others say that local knowledge, lane markings and conditions will alter 'absolute advice' on the roads re-exiting in lane 2.
Cmakka23 said:
We teach people to use the brakes to slow the car down, that's what they are there for, using engine breaking wouldn't be something the examiner would like to see a learner do I'm afraid. And as for coasting, as I've said I'd be very surprised to see an instructor teach someone to keep their clutch down around a corner and bring it up afterwards, it's a sure fire way of not passing your test!
References to engine braking are in relation to heavy commercial vehicles, as far as I am aware. Here, of course, it is required.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff