RE: Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde: Driven
Discussion
Jimbo. said:
Baryonyx said:
Shame it doesn't have a manual box, or even a DCT. At least the LHD markets will be able to experience this car at it's best then.
What difference would it make having a DCT over the ZF 'box it has?1. Manual, Great interaction, especially if it's a decent box. None of the other options give you the same sense of fun, feeling or interaction. Full control of gear changes and the ability to modulate the clutch according to need. Downsides are that your leg get's tired in stop start traffic and you need to change the clutch every so often.
2. DCT\DSG\TCT whatever you want to call it. Usually quicker shifting then a manual or auto but more importantly a more positive gear engagement i.e. no slurring between gears. Pretty good in auto mode. Usually the quickest to 0-60 due to slick programming and the best mpg. Downsides are the auto mode isn't as smooth as a full auto and sometimes get's caught out. The manual mode still isn't as engaging as a full manual, click click click on a paddle just isn't as fun as stirring the stick, heal and toeing etc plus they seem rather fragile with lots of reports of them breaking very expensively.
3. Auto. Great at automatically changing gears, smoothest gear change, they don't often break and don't need a clutch changing. Downsides are they are the least interactive out of the 3 and slur gears between changes which makes them feel a bit lazy. Using the paddles is often an exercise in futility too as they will often override you or change late. (and yes I've tried a ZF8 and it was the same)
leglessAlex said:
Bladedancer said:
So there is a manual version but it's not coming to UK?
That is just plain stupid IMO.
Out of interest, why? I imagine the market for RHD, manual versions of these cars is forecast to be tiny, why would they bother putting in the effort and spending the money on something that'll barely sell?That is just plain stupid IMO.
There's not doubt it's a shame for anyone that wants one and could afford one, but you can hardly call Alfa stupid for making the decision. Seems like good business sense to me.
Furthermore, this is not like the M5 which was auto to start with with manual being introduced later, in the US of all places. We know now that both boxes will be available in LHD markets.
Why would it "barely sell"? This is an Alfa. People who want a fast exec saloon will still go for M3/RS4/C63. Alfas IMO have specific audience and they should cater to that audience.
Let's be honest, people can paint this as M3 competitor all they like, we can all marvel at it, but it is not a competition to the M3, or other Germans for that matter, in the real sense because it will not sell in anywhere near the same numbers. So why do the same thing as everybody else and limit your appeal?
I don't know, maybe they've done extensive studies or taken 1000s of preorders for this and all of them auto to know manual won't sell. If that's it then it's just me crying over the slow death of proper manual gearboxes and rise of laziness of autos.
If that isn't the case then this Alfa in UK is going to be just another performance exec with an auto box.
And the car Alfa seems to aim for, the M3, is available with a manual...
Guvernator said:
Not sure what Baryonyx thinks but my order of preference is like this
1. Manual, Great interaction, especially if it's a decent box. None of the other options give you the same sense of fun, feeling or interaction. Full control of gear changes and the ability to modulate the clutch according to need. Downsides are that your leg get's tired in stop start traffic and you need to change the clutch every so often.
2. DCT\DSG\TCT whatever you want to call it. Usually quicker shifting then a manual or auto but more importantly a more positive gear engagement i.e. no slurring between gears. Pretty good in auto mode. Usually the quickest to 0-60 due to slick programming and the best mpg. Downsides are the auto mode isn't as smooth as a full auto and sometimes get's caught out. The manual mode still isn't as engaging as a full manual, click click click on a paddle just isn't as fun as stirring the stick, heal and toeing etc plus they seem rather fragile with lots of reports of them breaking very expensively.
3. Auto. Great at automatically changing gears, smoothest gear change, they don't often break and don't need a clutch changing. Downsides are they are the least interactive out of the 3 and slur gears between changes which makes them feel a bit lazy. Using the paddles is often an exercise in futility too as they will often override you or change late. (and yes I've tried a ZF8 and it was the same)
Pretty much spot on. They all feel different and the slushmatic just doesn't appeal to me. If I must have an auto, I'd want the seemless snap of the DSG. 1. Manual, Great interaction, especially if it's a decent box. None of the other options give you the same sense of fun, feeling or interaction. Full control of gear changes and the ability to modulate the clutch according to need. Downsides are that your leg get's tired in stop start traffic and you need to change the clutch every so often.
2. DCT\DSG\TCT whatever you want to call it. Usually quicker shifting then a manual or auto but more importantly a more positive gear engagement i.e. no slurring between gears. Pretty good in auto mode. Usually the quickest to 0-60 due to slick programming and the best mpg. Downsides are the auto mode isn't as smooth as a full auto and sometimes get's caught out. The manual mode still isn't as engaging as a full manual, click click click on a paddle just isn't as fun as stirring the stick, heal and toeing etc plus they seem rather fragile with lots of reports of them breaking very expensively.
3. Auto. Great at automatically changing gears, smoothest gear change, they don't often break and don't need a clutch changing. Downsides are they are the least interactive out of the 3 and slur gears between changes which makes them feel a bit lazy. Using the paddles is often an exercise in futility too as they will often override you or change late. (and yes I've tried a ZF8 and it was the same)
thegreenhell said:
Baryonyx said:
...the seemless snap of the DSG.
Isn't that an oxymoron?anonymous said:
[redacted]
In my experience there's very little ground between the best torque converter (which IMO is the 8-speed ZF unit) and dual clutch automatics these days. I can see why an auto fan might want a DSG in a weekend car, but in something like this I think I'd prefer a slush-box if there isn't a manual available. It's certainly still true that gear-changes are slightly more... abrupt with a DSG but if I'm going to have an automatic I think I'd rather they were smooth. Modern autos no longer leave you in some vague half-way house between gears for ages while they change.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The problem is I wouldn't be. The DCT is the lesser of two evils if there is no other option but I prefer a manual to both. I'm not a DCT\Auto hater and they certainly have there place but driving auto\DCT's for years and then jumping into a friends manual recently, I've realised what I've been missing all this time.The Guilia was my last hope of a modern performance saloon with a manual but that too is out the window hence my recent what car thread looking for a decent manual.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The things you mentions don't bother me so much asA) I'm not a good enough driver
B) It's a 4 door saloon, not a raw sports car so I don't expect the last word in feedback.
B) After years of modern German car ownership I've probably become acclimatised and inured to the whole dead primary controls thing.
What I have realised though is that letting the car change gear for you is boring as hell. Strange set of criteria admittedly but I'd imagine it applies to a few on here.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oh if it's woeful it bothers me but either I'm not sensitive enough or it's not as important to me as to other people. I also think some people like to exaggerate these problems. I've driven quite a few modern performance orientated saloons and I can't remember too many where the primary controls were so woeful that it totally spoiled my enjoyment. Yes a lot have slightly over-assisted brakes or not feelsome enough steering but if you adjust your expectations to that of a modern saloon rather than a razor sharp sports car made 20 years ago you'll often not be disappointed. What I have discovered after almost exclusively using auto\dsg's for the last 5-6 years is that not changing gear yourself removes a huge part of the enjoyment of driving for me. I've constantly heard\read that auto's\dsg's are getting better but they've only got better at the auto gear changes, the manual modes are still very much lacking IMO. It's taken me a long time to realise this but now I have I don't think I can go back. I admit my usage profile probably doesn't suit the type of buyer that a lot of companies envisage buying this type of car but judging by comments on here and other places I'm not alone. Indeed there does seem to be at least some acknowledgment by a few manufacturers that they've listened to that small but vocal minority who don't want to see manuals die. The fact that Alfa make this car as a manual in LHD form also shows Alfa at least acknowledge this too, unfortunately they aren't exactly cash rich at the moment so they can't afford to re-engineer the manual for RHD but I'm hoping if this car is a success and enough people make a noise, we may still see a RHD manual petrol version at some point.
dme123 said:
kambites said:
It'll be interesting to see if Jaguar do shove the supercharged V8 from the F-type into the XE.
I suspect they'll put in the straight 6 ingenium engine in a high state of tune rather than use the V8. I am quite excited at the return of the I6 to Jaguar!Bladedancer said:
Because manual *is* available elsewhere in the world and I doubt it would be that much of a problem to offer it in UK. Moreover, *if* other RHD markets get it (I don't know if they do) then there would no reason for it not being available in UK.
Furthermore, this is not like the M5 which was auto to start with with manual being introduced later, in the US of all places. We know now that both boxes will be available in LHD markets.
Why would it "barely sell"? This is an Alfa. People who want a fast exec saloon will still go for M3/RS4/C63. Alfas IMO have specific audience and they should cater to that audience.
Let's be honest, people can paint this as M3 competitor all they like, we can all marvel at it, but it is not a competition to the M3, or other Germans for that matter, in the real sense because it will not sell in anywhere near the same numbers. So why do the same thing as everybody else and limit your appeal?
I don't know, maybe they've done extensive studies or taken 1000s of preorders for this and all of them auto to know manual won't sell. If that's it then it's just me crying over the slow death of proper manual gearboxes and rise of laziness of autos.
If that isn't the case then this Alfa in UK is going to be just another performance exec with an auto box.
And the car Alfa seems to aim for, the M3, is available with a manual...
It's very true that if it's offered in other RHD markets then it should be offered in the UK, but I read it as being not offered in any RHD car because they simply didn't do the engineering. You say you doubt it would be that much of a problem, but Alfa themselves know exactly how much of a problem it would be and have decided it isn't worth it. Furthermore, this is not like the M5 which was auto to start with with manual being introduced later, in the US of all places. We know now that both boxes will be available in LHD markets.
Why would it "barely sell"? This is an Alfa. People who want a fast exec saloon will still go for M3/RS4/C63. Alfas IMO have specific audience and they should cater to that audience.
Let's be honest, people can paint this as M3 competitor all they like, we can all marvel at it, but it is not a competition to the M3, or other Germans for that matter, in the real sense because it will not sell in anywhere near the same numbers. So why do the same thing as everybody else and limit your appeal?
I don't know, maybe they've done extensive studies or taken 1000s of preorders for this and all of them auto to know manual won't sell. If that's it then it's just me crying over the slow death of proper manual gearboxes and rise of laziness of autos.
If that isn't the case then this Alfa in UK is going to be just another performance exec with an auto box.
And the car Alfa seems to aim for, the M3, is available with a manual...
I don't know for certain that it would barely sell, that was an educated guess based on the fact Alfa themselves have said it wasn't worth doing and if you look for the current M3 saloon on Auto Trader you find 64 autos and 4 manuals. Audi and Mercedes don't even bother to offer a manual and they seem to be selling shedloads.
Obviously, you don't like the fact that they're trying to produce a competitor to the M3, RS4 and C63 and that's totally ok! Different people like different things. I quoted your original post as I thought it was unfair to slate Alfa for something that seems to be a sound business decision, that's all.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
no which is why I haven't already decided how it'll drive.The short youtube video by Schmee indicates quite feelsome and lively steering however.
no disappointment in how it drives at all, calls it fun... all it lacks more drama/noise.
One man's view, may not be yours... or mine, always best to wait until you've experienced it to decide I feel.
Quickmoose said:
One man's view, may not be yours... or mine, always best to wait until you've experienced it to decide I feel.
That's all very well in theory, but it means you have to drive every version of every car ever released before discounting it. When I was buying my Elise, I didn't test drive a Ssangyong Rodius because it probably wasn't going to drive like a sports car. Obviously that's an extreme example but I assume his point was that the traits he describes are a fundamental part of the market segment into which this is being released so it's pretty much inconceivable that it wont also have them. Stick most compact exec buyers in a car with proper steering feel and a firm brake pedal which actually requires some force to use and I suspect they'd think it was broken.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 18th May 10:10
Fair enough.
That's told me.
I'll buy cars off the basis of gut instinct, guess work and armchair enthusiasts from now on.
I can't believe I was niaive enough to think my own opinion, or 'feel', subject to a test drive of the given alternatives in the given market sector (Elise buyer testing a SsangYong?? really, point stretched WAY too far).
SO for my next car, I wont have a VAuxhall because they're just rubbish
Nothing French as it'll break
Nothing Italian as it'll rust
Nothing British as it'll break
Nothing modern because they're all disconnected
Nothing German as they're dull
ermm let me know of anything else I should consider.
That's told me.
I'll buy cars off the basis of gut instinct, guess work and armchair enthusiasts from now on.
I can't believe I was niaive enough to think my own opinion, or 'feel', subject to a test drive of the given alternatives in the given market sector (Elise buyer testing a SsangYong?? really, point stretched WAY too far).
SO for my next car, I wont have a VAuxhall because they're just rubbish
Nothing French as it'll break
Nothing Italian as it'll rust
Nothing British as it'll break
Nothing modern because they're all disconnected
Nothing German as they're dull
ermm let me know of anything else I should consider.
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