Investment Cars
Discussion
MrBarry123 said:
And again.
It's unfair to brand those who buy and hold onto appreciating classics as similar to those who "flip" new cars.
The former are good for the car community - they spend significant moneys on maintaining and servicing the cars to ensure they can be seen for years to come - whereas the latter are absolutely not.
Oh dear ... I do both so your going to have to burn me at the stake !! Actually th new ones I flipped I just didn't like and the old ones I love just happened to go up ! So much so they are now undriveable, so I have to buy something else .... Man maths !! It's unfair to brand those who buy and hold onto appreciating classics as similar to those who "flip" new cars.
The former are good for the car community - they spend significant moneys on maintaining and servicing the cars to ensure they can be seen for years to come - whereas the latter are absolutely not.
Phib
The way the car market has gone with gigantic investment funds, imaginative dealers, bent journalists and deluded "enthusiasts" has ruined any passion or enthusiasm I had for classic/exotic cars.
However, this simply encouraged me to take my full motorcycle licence 3-4 years ago... Now, to be completely honest, I find cars rather dull and involving. I am now content driving around in a generic car with an automatic gearbox.
P.S. Here is the perfect example of a car that nobody gave a single f
k about 5-10 years ago. But Chris Harris is doing his bit to inflate the perceived value of an EB110 for an auction house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3An1XcXWoeA
However, this simply encouraged me to take my full motorcycle licence 3-4 years ago... Now, to be completely honest, I find cars rather dull and involving. I am now content driving around in a generic car with an automatic gearbox.
P.S. Here is the perfect example of a car that nobody gave a single f
k about 5-10 years ago. But Chris Harris is doing his bit to inflate the perceived value of an EB110 for an auction house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3An1XcXWoeAphib said:
red_slr said:
Was thinking about this again last night.
Lets take the 355 as an example as I know a little bit about them.
So, to buy now its £100k lets say.
In 20 years, if you spend £5k PA (very conservative IMHO) keeping it on the road you will be in for c.£200k.
Now using some very rough calculations if you invested £100k today and topped up by £5k PA then I suspect you would be a little north of £225k in 20 years.
So, the basic question when it comes to the 355 would be, will it be worth over £225k in 20 years..
Personally I expect that £5k PA running cost will creep up towards £10k or even more once the car is 40 years old.
£5k a year sounds pretty high !! Had mine about 10 years and it's probably cost about £1500 average a year to service / tyres etc etc I guess it depends on how much you want to 'use' your investment !!Lets take the 355 as an example as I know a little bit about them.
So, to buy now its £100k lets say.
In 20 years, if you spend £5k PA (very conservative IMHO) keeping it on the road you will be in for c.£200k.
Now using some very rough calculations if you invested £100k today and topped up by £5k PA then I suspect you would be a little north of £225k in 20 years.
So, the basic question when it comes to the 355 would be, will it be worth over £225k in 20 years..
Personally I expect that £5k PA running cost will creep up towards £10k or even more once the car is 40 years old.
Mine was never bought as an investment, in all honesty I wouldn't pay £150k for a 355 or for my 550 !!!
On a s separate not one guy bought up about 60 of the Range Rover CSK's and is manipulating the market
You still can't have my 355 though !!
Phib
George 500 said:
Guvernator said:
Esceptico said:
A pox on all you aholes buying cars as investments and driving prices out of reach of enthusiasts that just want to own and drive them. I hope the market collapses and you all lose lots of money.
100% agree. Buy a car, usually one with racing\motorsport influence which is designed to be driven....and then stick it in a garage where it hardly turns a wheel. If I was in charge, anyone who owned a car which did less than 3000 miles a year would have it removed from their possession and given to someone more worthy.holes buying cars as investments and driving prices out of reach of enthusiasts that just want to own and drive them. I hope the market collapses and you all lose lots of money.I have loved cars from the day my parents took me home from hospital (in the boot of a Porshe 924), my first car was an MG Midget and I love and obsess about bits of old greasy metal
Esceptico doesn't reference what car he owns but frankly he seems to understand little about old cars. My father owns a 1933 Railton- it is a fabulous beast with a four litre straight eight (so fast by vintage standards) but 3,000 miles? Should he be commuting in it?
And does he feel he should determine where we drive these cars? Does this all have to be at 10/10ths in the Highlands. Surely driving a Lambo in London is only for poseurs?
And what about those who like to show and shine? The ones whose Testarossa never breaks 3,000rpm on the way to a show where they polish the exhaust tips with a tooth brush- surely they don't meet the bar either? Should we form a communist style block determining how people use their cars?
Frankly this is a broad church- if you derive enjoyment from just looking at your 911 then I am all good with that. Not what I would do, but then I don't like lots of things
In terms of whether these things make money well of course they can- but never place yourself in debt (you wouldn't borrow and invest in the stock market would you?) and buy what you enjoy so if it goes a bit milky it doesn't matter
As a couple of other points I would suggest that anything less than £20k will virtually never provide an appreciable return on investment after associated costs. So it is not an investment, it is just man maths
Secondly- I would suggest that the most vulnerable sector of the market is this modern (sub 10yr old) "investor" category. It was the sector that got hit hardest in the 80s and it is unsustainable. There are now so many limited editions they are virtually becoming the norm- and where are they all being kept? So you bought a 360CS, then a 430 Scud. No problems so far. But now you are being offered the 458 Speciale, clearly you have to have that, and now a 458 Aperta. Now you are being rung up about a 488 Whizzbang- eventually something has to give. Even rich guys can't just keep loading up- its a space thing apart from anything else.
Furthermore each new one is better than the last- so these things just become slightly rubbish old cars. At this point they suddenly start competing for your heart as much as your head, and you have always loved the idea of going to the pub in a Dino...
And I love what is being described as "rare" or "limited" at the moment. "Out of Production" does not mean "rare". "Limited Run" is not limited if the run is equivalent to the number of paying customers that would have been there if it was not limited. Mclaren 675LT?? 1,000 £300k supercars, does this really sound limited?
For me look at what is underappreciated- and right now that means stuff outside the froth. And this means going MUCH older. Jag XK120/140/150, powerful vintage cars and frankly motorbikes
Just my two-penneth worth
The first can polish them within an inch of their metal as far as I am concerned but the dealers\speculators who merely see this as somewhere to make money can all bog off and go and buy a painting, some more houses or something else and leave the enthusiasts to their passion, be it driving or polishing them as far as I am concerned.
Some interesting posts.
The Bonhams auction at the weekend had a lot of cars that didn't make their reserve or estimate. There was some debate as to whether it was an element of softening demand, a lack of true quality vehicles, or overambitious estimating reflecting next year's potential price rather than today's real one. Or perhaps a bit of all three.
There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
I quite agree that recent models are being dragged up. I own an Aston Martin DBS V12. It seems to be appreciating. Which is nice. It doesn't make much sense. Yes it is a fabulous car. It is, without doubt, one of the best ever produced by the factory (on objective yardsticks - and ain't too shabby on the more subjective ones either). It has "Bond heritage". It was the top-of-the range, halo car. All of these things suggest it has value. But there are bleeding hundreds of the things. They are pretty similar to the current Vanquish model - and I can wander into a showroom and order one of those today. I can't see it lasting (though I'm not about to sell - I love it too much).
Much longer term, I rather think the car bubble will deflate as there is a shift in demographics. I employ 30 people. Most of them are under 35. None of the younger ones own a car (probably about eight of us do). None of them want to own a car. They live in London - a car is a pain. They get around in Ubers. If they need a car, they hire a ZipCar. As driverless cars take over, conventional car ownership will become a dying interest.
The Bonhams auction at the weekend had a lot of cars that didn't make their reserve or estimate. There was some debate as to whether it was an element of softening demand, a lack of true quality vehicles, or overambitious estimating reflecting next year's potential price rather than today's real one. Or perhaps a bit of all three.
There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
I quite agree that recent models are being dragged up. I own an Aston Martin DBS V12. It seems to be appreciating. Which is nice. It doesn't make much sense. Yes it is a fabulous car. It is, without doubt, one of the best ever produced by the factory (on objective yardsticks - and ain't too shabby on the more subjective ones either). It has "Bond heritage". It was the top-of-the range, halo car. All of these things suggest it has value. But there are bleeding hundreds of the things. They are pretty similar to the current Vanquish model - and I can wander into a showroom and order one of those today. I can't see it lasting (though I'm not about to sell - I love it too much).
Much longer term, I rather think the car bubble will deflate as there is a shift in demographics. I employ 30 people. Most of them are under 35. None of the younger ones own a car (probably about eight of us do). None of them want to own a car. They live in London - a car is a pain. They get around in Ubers. If they need a car, they hire a ZipCar. As driverless cars take over, conventional car ownership will become a dying interest.
McAndy said:
Guvernator said:
AstonZagato said:
Some interesting posts.
There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
Good post and I really hope this happens. It will eliminate most of the "speculators" in one fell swoop.There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
Guvernator said:
McAndy said:
Guvernator said:
AstonZagato said:
Some interesting posts.
There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
Good post and I really hope this happens. It will eliminate most of the "speculators" in one fell swoop.There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
Guvernator said:
McAndy said:
Guvernator said:
AstonZagato said:
Some interesting posts.
There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
Good post and I really hope this happens. It will eliminate most of the "speculators" in one fell swoop.There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
irocfan said:
Guvernator said:
McAndy said:
Guvernator said:
AstonZagato said:
Some interesting posts.
There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
Good post and I really hope this happens. It will eliminate most of the "speculators" in one fell swoop.There is also a rumour that CGT will be introduced on cars.
If I were Chancellor, I would apply CGT to all cars.
- Gains only (no offset of depreciation/losses).
- No indexing.
- Tax on: (Sale price - Purchase price - Restoration bills in last 18-24 months). No offset of restoration bills for a dealer.
Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 24th May 14:02
There are a few cars which I'd loved to have owned and with hindsight should have bought when I looked/considered them before prices went crazy; 996 Turbo, Sierra/Escort Cosworth, Honda NSX to name a few... now they've rocketed in value, I'll never own them either because I don't feel they're worth the asking price or they're simply just out of my budget.
I can't see how the trend can continue at the same rate though, there's surely a ceiling that a car (special editions/competition cars aside) will reach before even the most well heeled buyer starts to question the VFM?! Although I never thought I'd see Escort RS Turbos and Cosworths going for over £50k and I was wrong about that, so who knows..
Cheers,
Grant
I can't see how the trend can continue at the same rate though, there's surely a ceiling that a car (special editions/competition cars aside) will reach before even the most well heeled buyer starts to question the VFM?! Although I never thought I'd see Escort RS Turbos and Cosworths going for over £50k and I was wrong about that, so who knows..
Cheers,
Grant
AstonZagato said:
No idea. It's a rumour.
If I were Chancellor, I would apply CGT to all cars.
Would be totally insane...and also totally unfair!If I were Chancellor, I would apply CGT to all cars.
- Gains only (no offset of depreciation/losses).
- No indexing.
- Tax on: (Sale price - Purchase price - Restoration bills in last 18-24 months). No offset of restoration bills for a dealer.
Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 24th May 14:02
The Moose said:
AstonZagato said:
No idea. It's a rumour.
If I were Chancellor, I would apply CGT to all cars.
Would be totally insane...and also totally unfair!If I were Chancellor, I would apply CGT to all cars.
- Gains only (no offset of depreciation/losses).
- No indexing.
- Tax on: (Sale price - Purchase price - Restoration bills in last 18-24 months). No offset of restoration bills for a dealer.
Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 24th May 14:02
Guvernator said:
The Moose said:
AstonZagato said:
No idea. It's a rumour.
If I were Chancellor, I would apply CGT to all cars.
Would be totally insane...and also totally unfair!If I were Chancellor, I would apply CGT to all cars.
- Gains only (no offset of depreciation/losses).
- No indexing.
- Tax on: (Sale price - Purchase price - Restoration bills in last 18-24 months). No offset of restoration bills for a dealer.
Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 24th May 14:02
xRIEx said:
What happens in the case of 'accidental' appreciation? Someone buys a normal car, keeps it so long it gets mega popular, all other examples of it have been scrapped so it's worth loads - doesn't have a record of what he originally paid for it so can't calculate the actual gain and therefore how much tax should be paid.
Not sure of the finer details, that's what government think tanks are for 
. Houses which are bought as investments are also subject to CGT and you don't see people moaning too much about that. Why is it reasonable to tax on sale of a second home, BTL's etc which have also "accidentally appreciated" and not cars?Cars are one of the few things which attract no tax on sale and where the market isn't regulated at all leading to easy market manipulation. If people are going to buy cars as assets rather then as something to drive\cherish, then they should be treated as such. Paintings, art jewellery attract CGT, not sure why a car is any different?
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