Investment Cars

[squirdan]

mentioned once so far in this thread I think

Megane R26.R

sensibly priced currently £18-20k
great to drive
limited production run
unlikely to ever be beaten as an extreme factory built hot hatch (in the sense of plastic windows and Ti exhaust)
roadmap to future value accretion from other special Renaults...eg Clio V6 @ £30k from earlier in the thread

and if it doesnt go up, youve still got an epic real world B road and track machine that costs buttons to run

I am biased as I have one, but also previously owned a 968CS and an M3 CSL and everything that has made those go up a lot also imho holds true for the R26R (albeit 968 CS i would think has a lot further to go relative to other Porsches as still looks cheap, I see Andrew Frankel is now eulogising about his nearly purchased maritime blue Sport on twitter)

[blade7]

squirdan said:

(albeit 968 CS i would think has a lot further to go relative to other Porsches as still looks cheap, I see Andrew Frankel is now eulogising about his nearly purchased maritime blue Sport on twitter)

How exactly is a 968 CS different to a 968 Sport ?

[squirdan]

blade7 said:

squirdan said:

(albeit 968 CS i would think has a lot further to go relative to other Porsches as still looks cheap, I see Andrew Frankel is now eulogising about his nearly purchased maritime blue Sport on twitter)

How exactly is a 968 CS different to a 968 Sport ?

hardly different at all. slightly more creature comforts in a Sport and has back seats which CS doesnt. Sport was a UK market only spec I think but mechanically the same

probably less likely to have the optional M030 pack fitted though which is what purists want

[blade7]

squirdan said:

blade7 said:

squirdan said:

(albeit 968 CS i would think has a lot further to go relative to other Porsches as still looks cheap, I see Andrew Frankel is now eulogising about his nearly purchased maritime blue Sport on twitter)

How exactly is a 968 CS different to a 968 Sport ?

hardly different at all. slightly more creature comforts in a Sport and has back seats which CS doesnt. Sport was a UK market only spec I think but mechanically the same

probably less likely to have the optional M030 pack fitted though which is what purists want

So why are people paying up to double for a CS ?

[Fast Bug]

spreadsheet monkey said:

Fast Bug said:

Legacywr said:

4-5K as it's a Ford?

Only if it's got a couple of grand in the glovebox!

^^ This. KGF or someone like that might try to ask 4-5k for it, but I don't think they'd give more than 2-3k. Can't imagine anyone being nostalgic for a basic Mk5 Escort.

As ever with these zero mileage cars, they only have appeal as a museum piece or showroom ornament. It would need a fair bit of recommissioning if you wanted to use it on the road, and it loses its value as a zero mileage "timewarp" car as soon as you put a few thousand miles on it.

I've got a 6000 mile 1981 Porsche 924, and I've just spent nigh on £1500 going through it bringing it up to speed so you can do more than actually drive it. £500 of that is on new fuel pump as the old one is all gummed up from the petrol that turned in to varnish in the tank

[squirdan]

blade7 said:

squirdan said:

blade7 said:

squirdan said:

(albeit 968 CS i would think has a lot further to go relative to other Porsches as still looks cheap, I see Andrew Frankel is now eulogising about his nearly purchased maritime blue Sport on twitter)

How exactly is a 968 CS different to a 968 Sport ?

hardly different at all. slightly more creature comforts in a Sport and has back seats which CS doesnt. Sport was a UK market only spec I think but mechanically the same

probably less likely to have the optional M030 pack fitted though which is what purists want

So why are people paying up to double for a CS ?

who said the market has to be rational?

probably because a 911 Clubsport with similar sidewinder decals is well over £100k

[red_slr]

Was thinking about this again last night.

Lets take the 355 as an example as I know a little bit about them.

So, to buy now its £100k lets say.
In 20 years, if you spend £5k PA (very conservative IMHO) keeping it on the road you will be in for c.£200k.
Now using some very rough calculations if you invested £100k today and topped up by £5k PA then I suspect you would be a little north of £225k in 20 years.

So, the basic question when it comes to the 355 would be, will it be worth over £225k in 20 years..

Personally I expect that £5k PA running cost will creep up towards £10k or even more once the car is 40 years old.

[blade7]

squirdan said:

who said the market has to be rational?

probably because a 911 Clubsport with similar sidewinder decals is well over £100k

£20K for stickers ? You're probably aware the 968 Sport started out as a CS, and it would be very easy to reverse spec it back into one. I wouldn't be surprised if that's been done more than once.

[spreadsheet monkey]

Fast Bug said:

I've got a 6000 mile 1981 Porsche 924, and I've just spent nigh on £1500 going through it bringing it up to speed so you can do more than actually drive it. £500 of that is on new fuel pump as the old one is all gummed up from the petrol that turned in to varnish in the tank

Nice. Am sure it'll be worth the effort and expense when done!

[av185]

twinturban said:

911s being hard to shift.......all of them are overpriced

Rather a sweeping statement.

[av185]

Tuvra said:

Considering GT4s were swapping hands at 50% above RRP with delivery mileage. I read a rumour that 80% of them have been flipped already

All rumours are definitely true.

[av185]

Yournotmyfather said:

ruzman said:

Very interesting - and also what I believe. Therefore the 911R is a future profit. Probably 40% up as soon as it leaves the showroom. Just wish I had the money.

I'm curious about the 911R, there is no doubt it'll jump in value as soon as its built- but I'm wary of how its value will be affected by the option of a Gen2 991 GT3 with a manual gearbox - all for less than list of the R.

So the 911 R will plummet from its current c £1 million to below £132k just because of the second gen GT3?

[McAndy]

av185 said:

All rumours are definitely true.

And 83% of all statistics can be validated by unmanipulated data.

[JamesyBoy1975]

The Beaver King said:

Maybe not soon, but eventually rarity will make it worth something. Low volume and plenty of interesting age related features will make it somewhat valuable.

Unfortunately for me rarity isn't a sole indicator of value, compare prices of Escort Cosworth, Integrale etc vs Toyota Celica GT4....

There are some cars the market doesn't really fancy, as far as I'm aware Lotus Carlton is another example of the car that fashion forgot...

on the other side of that, if you want to pick up a competent, fast, interesting homologation special, then the Toyota can be picked up for £5-7K for a good un. cheap enough to justify actually putting some miles on them.

[Rangeroverover]

Shakermaker said:

Porsche 996.

Get one, and do some home spannering on it if you can, probably net you a few quid.

Based on no personal experience as I've never owned a Porsche, but online prices seem to indicate their quite low now, compared to other 911s.

I agree bought mine for £7250 sold it for £11,000 three years later, would now be about £13,000 and the prices will keep going, you have the "I wanna buy a Porsche cos it will make womwn want me" type buyer who would rather have a 911 than a boxster, you also have the enthusiast buyer who can only afford a 996 as its the cheapest entry to 911 ownership

[crashley]

What happened to the Beetle RSI ?

Edited to add, found one, £40k!

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C657420

[Blim_bug]

Cheap!

Three more (RSi's), on mobile.de.

http://m.mobile.de/auto/search.html?vc=Car&fe!...

At those prices I'd even be tempted to part with mine!

[phib]

red_slr said:

Was thinking about this again last night.

Lets take the 355 as an example as I know a little bit about them.

So, to buy now its £100k lets say.
In 20 years, if you spend £5k PA (very conservative IMHO) keeping it on the road you will be in for c.£200k.
Now using some very rough calculations if you invested £100k today and topped up by £5k PA then I suspect you would be a little north of £225k in 20 years.

So, the basic question when it comes to the 355 would be, will it be worth over £225k in 20 years..

Personally I expect that £5k PA running cost will creep up towards £10k or even more once the car is 40 years old.

£5k a year sounds pretty high !! Had mine about 10 years and it's probably cost about £1500 average a year to service / tyres etc etc I guess it depends on how much you want to 'use' your investment !!

Mine was never bought as an investment, in all honesty I wouldn't pay £150k for a 355 or for my 550 !!!

On a s separate not one guy bought up about 60 of the Range Rover CSK's and is manipulating the market

You still can't have my 355 though !!

Phib

[PGNSagaris]

TVR Sagaris

cheap to tax and insure...maintenance not too mad either.

Could go either way to be honest, especially with the new TVR arriving soon.

[George 500]

Guvernator said:

Esceptico said:

A pox on all you aholes buying cars as investments and driving prices out of reach of enthusiasts that just want to own and drive them. I hope the market collapses and you all lose lots of money.

100% agree. Buy a car, usually one with racing\motorsport influence which is designed to be driven....and then stick it in a garage where it hardly turns a wheel. If I was in charge, anyone who owned a car which did less than 3000 miles a year would have it removed from their possession and given to someone more worthy.

I loathe this attitude- do I have cars as investments? Yes. Does this make me less of a car enthusiast? Emphatically not

I have loved cars from the day my parents took me home from hospital (in the boot of a Porshe 924), my first car was an MG Midget and I love and obsess about bits of old greasy metal

Esceptico doesn't reference what car he owns but frankly he seems to understand little about old cars. My father owns a 1933 Railton- it is a fabulous beast with a four litre straight eight (so fast by vintage standards) but 3,000 miles? Should he be commuting in it?

And does he feel he should determine where we drive these cars? Does this all have to be at 10/10ths in the Highlands. Surely driving a Lambo in London is only for poseurs?

And what about those who like to show and shine? The ones whose Testarossa never breaks 3,000rpm on the way to a show where they polish the exhaust tips with a tooth brush- surely they don't meet the bar either? Should we form a communist style block determining how people use their cars?

Frankly this is a broad church- if you derive enjoyment from just looking at your 911 then I am all good with that. Not what I would do, but then I don't like lots of things

In terms of whether these things make money well of course they can- but never place yourself in debt (you wouldn't borrow and invest in the stock market would you?) and buy what you enjoy so if it goes a bit milky it doesn't matter

As a couple of other points I would suggest that anything less than £20k will virtually never provide an appreciable return on investment after associated costs. So it is not an investment, it is just man maths

Secondly- I would suggest that the most vulnerable sector of the market is this modern (sub 10yr old) "investor" category. It was the sector that got hit hardest in the 80s and it is unsustainable. There are now so many limited editions they are virtually becoming the norm- and where are they all being kept? So you bought a 360CS, then a 430 Scud. No problems so far. But now you are being offered the 458 Speciale, clearly you have to have that, and now a 458 Aperta. Now you are being rung up about a 488 Whizzbang- eventually something has to give. Even rich guys can't just keep loading up- its a space thing apart from anything else.

Furthermore each new one is better than the last- so these things just become slightly rubbish old cars. At this point they suddenly start competing for your heart as much as your head, and you have always loved the idea of going to the pub in a Dino...

And I love what is being described as "rare" or "limited" at the moment. "Out of Production" does not mean "rare". "Limited Run" is not limited if the run is equivalent to the number of paying customers that would have been there if it was not limited. Mclaren 675LT?? 1,000 £300k supercars, does this really sound limited?

For me look at what is underappreciated- and right now that means stuff outside the froth. And this means going MUCH older. Jag XK120/140/150, powerful vintage cars and frankly motorbikes

Just my two-penneth worth