Investment Cars
Discussion
CRA1G said:
The three BMW's i have bought over the last few years i have bought them because i wanted them and just kept them.. each one is now worth more than i paid especially the ZM Coupe but none were bought as investment's just for enjoyment..
If an enjoyable car also turns out to be an investment car this is the perfect result....Petrolhead95 said:
- McLaren 675LT and LT Spider. Know of people being offered more than 30% over original list price just for a delivery slot.
- New Ford GT will shoot up. Crazy money being offered for delivery slots.
- McLaren 12C. Bottomed out in price, can only go up or at least stay put.
But what about cars the average PH can afford/justify buying?- New Ford GT will shoot up. Crazy money being offered for delivery slots.
- McLaren 12C. Bottomed out in price, can only go up or at least stay put.
av185 said:
twinturban said:
dumbed down cars.
I'm talking about Porsche listening to their customers properly and rebuild their range around them. If they do that they will find a way to put a flat 6 back in a Boxster .
You clearly haven t driven a 991 GT3 if you think it is 'dumbed down'. Far more usable than the archaic 997 and entirely suited to the fantastic PDK S gearbox which is viewed by many as superior to the superb 458 transmission.I'm talking about Porsche listening to their customers properly and rebuild their range around them. If they do that they will find a way to put a flat 6 back in a Boxster .
It is about being analogue and being flawed in a charming way.
Back on topic, I think American classics are still pretty undervalued vs. European and even Japanese classics.
The recent ridiculously high prices obtained for laughable c eighties sheds e.g in the Silverstone auction where 1980 Escort Ghia reached c £20k (admittedly low mileage) is more testament to the current fashion for everything 80s rather than being a car with any talent.
All vehicles, no matter how dire, inevitably go out of favour then return to 'fashion' Mondeos, Montegos and Orions being prime examples....
All vehicles, no matter how dire, inevitably go out of favour then return to 'fashion' Mondeos, Montegos and Orions being prime examples....
De Tomaso Pantera's - proper Italian exotica, seems that while every Ferrari/Lambo has gone stratospheric in the last 3-4 years the poor Pantera has remained fairly static or only modest gains. These are poster cars for the 80's generation and yet for some reason still seem to be in the *sensible price bracket
(* Sensible as a relative term).
Last time i checked you can still lay hands on a non GT5 for around 50-60K, rare as you like and knicker elastic snapping noise and looks.
(* Sensible as a relative term).
Last time i checked you can still lay hands on a non GT5 for around 50-60K, rare as you like and knicker elastic snapping noise and looks.
The Moose said:
AstonZagato said:
The Moose said:
I'm specifically referring to the following points:
.
- No offest of depreciation/losses throughout a portfolio
- No index linking purchase price - unreasonable
- If a car was held for 10 years (say), only work that has been carried out in the last x months to be allowable expenses wouldn't be fair as part of the reason the value is where it is can be due to a comprehensive history - i.e. something with a full history of maintenance (regardless of usage) is generally more valuable than something that has nothing up until 2 years before sale
.- Cars are generally depreciating assets. He doesn't want to tax those - he only wants to tax the ones going up (which are investment vehicles). Owning a fleet of new cars and offsetting the losses on that against gains in a share portfolio would cause a generally lower tax take. So it might be unfair, but then who said life is fair.
- Indexation was binned a few years ago (unfair but there you go)
- That's wear and tear for the account of the owner. He's had the benefit. Doing it up to sell it, well, that is fair to offset. Not allowing an offset for a dealer prevents them from creating mythical/astronomical costs to reduce their gain. Severely impacts the hobbyist who does it himself. But every tax has its victims.
Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 24th May 17:32
- That's why they're not subject to CGT. There are plenty of people out there who buy brand new cars and attempt to flip them for profit. Some succeed and make a few quid, some don't and lose a few quid. If this asset class is based on other assets liable to CGT then surely if a bet doesn't pay off then the loss should go against a gain. As you rightly say, however, life isn't fair!
- It is what it is!
- Vehicles have expenses associated with them regardless of whether they are used - even if they sit in a shed for 20 years kept in a reasonable condition with no mileage put on them, there is still a cost associated with holding that asset. I'm still unsure as to why it's fair to allow costs to do up a car for sale, but not to keep it in a reasonable condition throughout ownership.
Perhaps what would pacify PHers would be the CGT to only apply if 1,000 miles or more are covered per year?
First of all, if the advantage to owning in personal name is removed then you just shift ownership to a corporate structure. Secondly, once CGT becomes applicable the State won't want the market correcting at any point so more money will flow in safe in the knowledge that price corrections will be prevented.
The amount of debt now associated with classic cars means that when the current supply sufficiently exceeds the demand then the fall in values will be heroic. No government wants those losses being able to be carried forward and deducted.
pat_y said:
De Tomaso Pantera's - proper Italian exotica, seems that while every Ferrari/Lambo has gone stratospheric in the last 3-4 years the poor Pantera has remained fairly static or only modest gains. These are poster cars for the 80's generation and yet for some reason still seem to be in the *sensible price bracket
(* Sensible as a relative term).
Last time i checked you can still lay hands on a non GT5 for around 50-60K, rare as you like and knicker elastic snapping noise and looks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Tomaso_Mangusta(* Sensible as a relative term).
Last time i checked you can still lay hands on a non GT5 for around 50-60K, rare as you like and knicker elastic snapping noise and looks.
As knicker elastic snapping as the Pantera is I give you the Mangusta which is deep in my top ten cars of all time.
DonkeyApple said:
The amount of debt now associated with classic cars...
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
The Moose said:
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?
I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
Funding optionsI don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
1. Cash purchase
2. Unsecured loan - slim chance and high cost
3. Equity release from property
4. Pension fund new rules = cash buy
5. Non investment into a pension &/Or ISA = cash buy
6. Crime - using cars irrespective of condition to launder cash & move cash from part of the world to another easily.
7. inheritance - given early to last the 7 year rule tax free.
8. Houses are too pricy to buy so mummy and daddy buy Precilla a nice bit of pork so when she gets to 21 she has a 911RSR
The Moose said:
DonkeyApple said:
The amount of debt now associated with classic cars...
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
And investment funds like this: http://ultimateclassiccarfund.com/
Then there is the fact that for the last 8 years or so they have been used as the collateral in complex tax avoidance schemes etc.
When people like the City surveyors start referring to classic cars as the best performing investment class of 2015 then that is also a pretty good sign of how messy it is getting.
Lenders have been busy this year taking cars back off collectors who once made their money in the oil industry. Tax free speculative gains plus aquired social status has seen vast sums of debt pour into classic cars in recent years.
Even at the arse end of the market people are piling in with loans to make the easy money: https://www.thecarloanwarehouse.com/car-finance/cl...
If you did this Google search 8 years ago you'd have not found much at all: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-ins...
Welshbeef said:
The Moose said:
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?
I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
Funding optionsI don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
1. Cash purchase
2. Unsecured loan - slim chance and high cost
3. Equity release from property
4. Pension fund new rules = cash buy
5. Non investment into a pension &/Or ISA = cash buy
6. Crime - using cars irrespective of condition to launder cash & move cash from part of the world to another easily.
7. inheritance - given early to last the 7 year rule tax free.
8. Houses are too pricy to buy so mummy and daddy buy Precilla a nice bit of pork so when she gets to 21 she has a 911RSR
2. Debt
3 Debt
4. No Debt
5. No Debt
6 No Debt
7 No debt
8 No Debt
So is there any evidence as to the scale of loans being taken to invest in vehicles?
pat_y said:
De Tomaso Pantera's - proper Italian exotica, seems that while every Ferrari/Lambo has gone stratospheric in the last 3-4 years the poor Pantera has remained fairly static or only modest gains. These are poster cars for the 80's generation and yet for some reason still seem to be in the *sensible price bracket
(* Sensible as a relative term).
Last time i checked you can still lay hands on a non GT5 for around 50-60K, rare as you like and knicker elastic snapping noise and looks.
Nope you've missed the boat on these too, well into 6 figures now for a clean GT5. The "normal" Pantera's are a bit cheaper but of course aren't as rare or look like they escaped from a race track but some people might prefer the cleaner lines. You are still looking at £70k+ for a clean one.(* Sensible as a relative term).
Last time i checked you can still lay hands on a non GT5 for around 50-60K, rare as you like and knicker elastic snapping noise and looks.
They are absolutely lovely to look at though.
DonkeyApple said:
The Moose said:
DonkeyApple said:
The amount of debt now associated with classic cars...
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
And investment funds like this: http://ultimateclassiccarfund.com/
Then there is the fact that for the last 8 years or so they have been used as the collateral in complex tax avoidance schemes etc.
When people like the City surveyors start referring to classic cars as the best performing investment class of 2015 then that is also a pretty good sign of how messy it is getting.
Lenders have been busy this year taking cars back off collectors who once made their money in the oil industry. Tax free speculative gains plus aquired social status has seen vast sums of debt pour into classic cars in recent years.
Even at the arse end of the market people are piling in with loans to make the easy money: https://www.thecarloanwarehouse.com/car-finance/cl...
If you did this Google search 8 years ago you'd have not found much at all: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-ins...
And forgive me, but your last point is nonsense! Classic car finance has been around forever! Take the 1st (natural) result in that list for example (only as it's one I'm familiar with) - est 1999.
Welshbeef said:
The Moose said:
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?
I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
Funding optionsI don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
1. Cash purchase
2. Unsecured loan - slim chance and high cost
3. Equity release from property
4. Pension fund new rules = cash buy
5. Non investment into a pension &/Or ISA = cash buy
6. Crime - using cars irrespective of condition to launder cash & move cash from part of the world to another easily.
7. inheritance - given early to last the 7 year rule tax free.
8. Houses are too pricy to buy so mummy and daddy buy Precilla a nice bit of pork so when she gets to 21 she has a 911RSR
The Moose said:
Your point being?
That in most situations it would be very unclear how a car was or wasn't funded so to view and make a call at the macro level is nigh on impossible. I wish I'd taken a good friends advice some 5 years ago on a 308 and a 190SL.... Wife put her foot down no more "toys". As I understand it between those two if bought in 2010 to value now I'd be sitting on what £150k clear profit? + the enjoyment of two stunning cars oh well.
Welshbeef said:
The Moose said:
Your point being?
That in most situations it would be very unclear how a car was or wasn't funded so to view and make a call at the macro level is nigh on impossible. I wish I'd taken a good friends advice some 5 years ago on a 308 and a 190SL.... Wife put her foot down no more "toys". As I understand it between those two if bought in 2010 to value now I'd be sitting on what £150k clear profit? + the enjoyment of two stunning cars oh well.
We turned down 2 McLaren F1s at £1,100,000 and £1,300,000 not that long ago - considered them a tad rich (which they were at the time). Those, today would have given a clear profit of over £10 mil and likely over £15 mil today...
The Moose said:
DonkeyApple said:
The Moose said:
DonkeyApple said:
The amount of debt now associated with classic cars...
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
And investment funds like this: http://ultimateclassiccarfund.com/
Then there is the fact that for the last 8 years or so they have been used as the collateral in complex tax avoidance schemes etc.
When people like the City surveyors start referring to classic cars as the best performing investment class of 2015 then that is also a pretty good sign of how messy it is getting.
Lenders have been busy this year taking cars back off collectors who once made their money in the oil industry. Tax free speculative gains plus aquired social status has seen vast sums of debt pour into classic cars in recent years.
Even at the arse end of the market people are piling in with loans to make the easy money: https://www.thecarloanwarehouse.com/car-finance/cl...
If you did this Google search 8 years ago you'd have not found much at all: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-ins...
And forgive me, but your last point is nonsense! Classic car finance has been around forever! Take the 1st (natural) result in that list for example (only as it's one I'm familiar with) - est 1999.
The mere fact that so many specialist firms have set up to sell this debt is clear enough show of the level of activity. And that's just the UK. In the US it is far worse with financial advisors considering a classic car to be part of a balanced portfolio.
If you're trying to say that there is little debt involved in this market or that the debt levels currently are inline with 1999 then I would politely suggest that you are off your rocker.
DonkeyApple said:
The Moose said:
DonkeyApple said:
The Moose said:
DonkeyApple said:
The amount of debt now associated with classic cars...
Rather off topic, however what proof have you seen as to the amount of debt used to purchase 'investment' cars?I don't wish to argue, I've just not seen reports stating such whereas I regularly see people saying that?
And investment funds like this: http://ultimateclassiccarfund.com/
Then there is the fact that for the last 8 years or so they have been used as the collateral in complex tax avoidance schemes etc.
When people like the City surveyors start referring to classic cars as the best performing investment class of 2015 then that is also a pretty good sign of how messy it is getting.
Lenders have been busy this year taking cars back off collectors who once made their money in the oil industry. Tax free speculative gains plus aquired social status has seen vast sums of debt pour into classic cars in recent years.
Even at the arse end of the market people are piling in with loans to make the easy money: https://www.thecarloanwarehouse.com/car-finance/cl...
If you did this Google search 8 years ago you'd have not found much at all: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-ins...
And forgive me, but your last point is nonsense! Classic car finance has been around forever! Take the 1st (natural) result in that list for example (only as it's one I'm familiar with) - est 1999.
The mere fact that so many specialist firms have set up to sell this debt is clear enough show of the level of activity. And that's just the UK. In the US it is far worse with financial advisors considering a classic car to be part of a balanced portfolio.
If you're trying to say that there is little debt involved in this market or that the debt levels currently are inline with 1999 then I would politely suggest that you are off your rocker.
What I am asking is whether you knew of a report indicating such. I find it interesting and would be interested to read more about that topic. From where I sit, it's a general feeling as opposed to a scientific conclusion if you will.
My personal opinion is that I agree - it feels like there's more debt in the market, however I'd like someone who is far cleverer than me to report as such!
As an aside, these days, it seems rather fashionable to have multiple routes to market for what is essentially the same product - seems to also be common in the insurance industry.
e.g. What used to be 'vehicle finance' and dealt with by 1 outfit could well now have multiple routes to market covering different niches such as:
- New Vehicle Finance
- Young Driver Vehicle Finance
- Used Vehicle Finance
- Classic Vehicle Finance
- etc etc etc
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