RE: Ford Focus RS vs. Honda Civic Type R
Discussion
yonex said:
RocketRS said:
Who said it was "mandatory"? If you prefer a car that accelerates less quickly, is less capable in bad weather and understeers because it lacks yaw control; then by all means, pass up the RS.
It's all relative though. You're hardly going to be lacking performance in either! Personally I'd take less weight, complexity and a more 'normal' layout for a hot hatch, but then I'd take a 135/140 over both tbh. You seem quite hell bent on proving the RS is the 'best'? The speeds you need to travel at to start leaning on yaw control are going to get you into trouble on the road. As I need a road car I prefer thrills to be happening at lower speeds. 
I'll chip in here too because when Matt was driving the Civic/Focus I was lucky enough to be in whichever he wasn't. And I spent all yesterday at Blyton with the Civic and a Megane 275 Cup-S. Which was very interesting!
I'm not going to talk about that now, other than to say it rained on the way home and the Civic didn't feel massively out of its depth. It's still got a mechanical diff remember and I don't recall anyone moaning about previous diff-equipped FWD Focus RS models being undriveable/lethal on a damp British B-road. People do seem to have very short memories here!
One thing that strikes me about the Focus, and something that also happened when we were doing our laps on the launch event, is that it seems very sensitive to the condition of its tyres. Drift Mode is all good fun and all but I think it absolutely monsters the tyres. You'd expect that to be the rears but not so; to overcome the natural balance of the car as the AWD set-up very cleverly does you have to accept it's going to absolutely murder the fronts. And once they've gone off it power understeers like any other hot hatch. On the launch IIRC we got three sets of laps (three/four each session IIRC) and by the final outing it was steadfastly pushing on where previously it had gone into big Drift Mode slides on the same corner, in the same gear, etc... Tyrone Johnson's quip about 'the death of any interesting corner...' did rather come back to haunt the car at that point!
Driven more neatly I think you'll enjoy the Focus's unique rear-bias in a more subtle fashion for a lot longer than idiots who aren't paying for their tyres and are attempting tyre smokin' showboating for the cameras. Guilty as charged, etc. And as such the USP of the car remains both appealing and intact. And enough to make it stand out against all the rivals at this price point. But with that you have to accept the weight as an issue and, unless you manage the tyres, you very quickly end up with a chunky lump of metal just as eager to push on as any equivalent. This is, of course, less of an issue if the comparison is only the road.
Aside from that the thing that amused me about this comparison is a situation where an RS Ford appears the mature and understated option!
And finally be under no doubt - these are both brilliant cars. Just varying degrees of brilliance that will appeal to different tastes and needs. On the day the Civic got the unanimous nod though.
Cheers,
Dan
I'm not going to talk about that now, other than to say it rained on the way home and the Civic didn't feel massively out of its depth. It's still got a mechanical diff remember and I don't recall anyone moaning about previous diff-equipped FWD Focus RS models being undriveable/lethal on a damp British B-road. People do seem to have very short memories here!
One thing that strikes me about the Focus, and something that also happened when we were doing our laps on the launch event, is that it seems very sensitive to the condition of its tyres. Drift Mode is all good fun and all but I think it absolutely monsters the tyres. You'd expect that to be the rears but not so; to overcome the natural balance of the car as the AWD set-up very cleverly does you have to accept it's going to absolutely murder the fronts. And once they've gone off it power understeers like any other hot hatch. On the launch IIRC we got three sets of laps (three/four each session IIRC) and by the final outing it was steadfastly pushing on where previously it had gone into big Drift Mode slides on the same corner, in the same gear, etc... Tyrone Johnson's quip about 'the death of any interesting corner...' did rather come back to haunt the car at that point!
Driven more neatly I think you'll enjoy the Focus's unique rear-bias in a more subtle fashion for a lot longer than idiots who aren't paying for their tyres and are attempting tyre smokin' showboating for the cameras. Guilty as charged, etc. And as such the USP of the car remains both appealing and intact. And enough to make it stand out against all the rivals at this price point. But with that you have to accept the weight as an issue and, unless you manage the tyres, you very quickly end up with a chunky lump of metal just as eager to push on as any equivalent. This is, of course, less of an issue if the comparison is only the road.
Aside from that the thing that amused me about this comparison is a situation where an RS Ford appears the mature and understated option!
And finally be under no doubt - these are both brilliant cars. Just varying degrees of brilliance that will appeal to different tastes and needs. On the day the Civic got the unanimous nod though.
Cheers,
Dan
Edited by Dan Trent on Tuesday 24th May 09:32
Axionknight said:
yonex said:
RocketRS said:
Who said it was "mandatory"? If you prefer a car that accelerates less quickly, is less capable in bad weather and understeers because it lacks yaw control; then by all means, pass up the RS.
It's all relative though. You're hardly going to be lacking performance in either! Personally I'd take less weight, complexity and a more 'normal' layout for a hot hatch, but then I'd take a 135/140 over both tbh. You seem quite hell bent on proving the RS is the 'best'? The speeds you need to travel at to start leaning on yaw control are going to get you into trouble on the road. As I need a road car I prefer thrills to be happening at lower speeds. Dan Trent said:
I'll chip in here too because when Matt was driving the Civic/Focus I was lucky enough to be in whichever he wasn't. And I spent all yesterday at Blyton with the Civic and a Megane 275 Cup-S. Which was very interesting!
Tell us the the Megane is still the king and we can all go home 
Auto Motor und Sport just tested both cars...same outcome as PH.
Weights from their article...I think these are without driver, but with a full fuel tank...
Focus RS 1563 kg
Civic Type R 1406 kg
So 157 kg between those two. Still a lot - but about what should be expected, the Focus obviously has a higher tech, more complex rear axle with awd and it is also quite a bit bigger - it is 20 mm longer, 88 mm (!) wider and 30mm taller than the Civic.
Weights from their article...I think these are without driver, but with a full fuel tank...
Focus RS 1563 kg
Civic Type R 1406 kg
So 157 kg between those two. Still a lot - but about what should be expected, the Focus obviously has a higher tech, more complex rear axle with awd and it is also quite a bit bigger - it is 20 mm longer, 88 mm (!) wider and 30mm taller than the Civic.
Dan Trent said:
And once they've gone off it power understeers like any other hot hatch. On the launch IIRC we got three sets of laps (three/four each session IIRC) and by the final outing it was steadfastly pushing on where previously it had gone into big Drift Mode slides on the same corner, in the same gear, etc... Tyrone Johnson's quip about 'the death of any interesting corner...' did rather come back to haunt the car at that point!
Dan: Ford seem to recommend rather high tyre pressures for the RS. When you were piling round the track, was anyone reducing the tyre pressures after each session to stop the temperatures and pressures spiralling up and up? I can only imagine that if you are starting at 40psi odd, a few heavy laps will see you at 50psi in no time. My experience to date is that you end up with a nightmare of a slippy car as your tyres overheat and the psi climbs and climbs.Edited by Dan Trent on Tuesday 24th May 09:32
Cheers
Steven RW
Steven_RW said:
Dan: Ford seem to recommend rather high tyre pressures for the RS. When you were piling round the track, was anyone reducing the tyre pressures after each session to stop the temperatures and pressures spiralling up and up? I can only imagine that if you are starting at 40psi odd, a few heavy laps will see you at 50psi in no time. My experience to date is that you end up with a nightmare of a slippy car as your tyres overheat and the psi climbs and climbs.
Cheers
Steven RW
We were as much as possible but it was obvious from the state of the tyres the fronts were taking a real beating, especially on the shoulders. Cheers
Steven RW
Dan
Dan Trent said:
AMGJocky said:
I shall prepare my Megane fanboy hat for that article then
I'm saying nothing. Other than I've had worse days at the office. And it's a lot, lot closer than Civic vs Focus. Dan
We compared the Civic to the Megane Trophy last year and called it for the Megane based on driving them on the road. This is our first go with the mildly revised Cup-S Megane and comes off the back of a lot more time with the Civic. This one is more track-based too.
Dan
Dan
Plastic Sith said:
Autoexpress 'versus' lap times round Llandow in dry, optimum conditions:
Civic Type R (FK2) - 46.50
BMW M2 - 46.70
BMW M3 (F80) - 46.80
Focus RS (Mk III) - 46.80
Seat Leon Cupra 280 DSG- 46.90
Audi RS3 Sportback (8V) - 47.00
Renault Megane RS275 Trophy - 47.60
All this tells me is that the performance differential is minimal. I love the civic, it handles great, the seats as mentioned are excellent, its well priced. If I was choosing though, I'm swaying towards the Focus. It will be just as much fun more of the time. I am a little worried about the engine though, I was not really impressed with the civics, it didn't feel that fast or interesting and the focus is meant to be even less dramatic. I've seen a few in the flesh (Grey and Black) now and although I prefer the lower key looks, they seem a little underwhelming. I think a test drive will be needed to make up my mind. The other hot hatches don't appeal to me. Although I liked the sound of the Clio that Renault are showing at Monaco this weekend.Civic Type R (FK2) - 46.50
BMW M2 - 46.70
BMW M3 (F80) - 46.80
Focus RS (Mk III) - 46.80
Seat Leon Cupra 280 DSG- 46.90
Audi RS3 Sportback (8V) - 47.00
Renault Megane RS275 Trophy - 47.60
Someone mentioned tyres, although its a slightly mute point given they are what they are from the manufacturer, the point someone was trying to make was that the Michelins are well known to be the better performing street tyre compared to the Continentals. There's no doubt with the Michelins the Civic would be quicker, as I say probably a mute point.
Steven_RW said:
Thanks. Do you think it needed some negative camber for hard track driving?
The thing is, this proves that any/most road cars whilst great for a 'ring time' and some track tomfoolery are going to cost an absolute fortune (tyres, brakes) for a day of hard use? Then, to get even more from them you have to start turning them into even more biased cars, which will probably be hateful on our rutted and cambered roads?You cannot escape the weight and centre of gravity that these new breadvans are carrying. Surely a part share in a toy and 'normal' road car is the way to go? I just don't get it.
Dan Trent said:
One thing that strikes me about the Focus, and something that also happened when we were doing our laps on the launch event, is that it seems very sensitive to the condition of its tyres. Drift Mode is all good fun and all but I think it absolutely monsters the tyres. You'd expect that to be the rears but not so; to overcome the natural balance of the car as the AWD set-up very cleverly does you have to accept it's going to absolutely murder the fronts.
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