RE: Ford Focus RS vs. Honda Civic Type R

[ZX10R NIN]

JoeMarano said:

The buying public are stupid and will always buy a Ford over every other car! The old Clio 200 cup was universally praised yet no one bought one!!! As for the reviews of course when you get given scoops on global cars you are going to praise them beyond belief!

The Clio 200 still made 197BHP but had but had a smidge more torque it was released in 2009 I wonder how many Renault sold vs VW with the Polo GTI.


Well if you take how many are for sale used then VW really didn't sell any in 2009

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

You only have to look at the performance figure let alone the reviews to see why the Clio monstered the above on the road as well as in the sales charts.

If you're talking about the Clio 200 EDC that was far from universally (the gearbox was a big bone of contention) praised which is why a handful of people have bought them, but it did help push Megane RS sales by all accounts.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Tuesday 24th May 23:06

[anonymous-user]

BertyFish said:

https://youtu.be/GGC6R5jiZSY

Uggh, tight bend, in, torque, ugh..nice

The Gordan Ramsey of Polo reviews. Fair play to him, he is nothing but not convinced himself

[RocketRS]

Dan Trent said:

[url=http://www.pistonheads.com/news/road-tests/honda-civic-type-r-vs-megane-275-trophy/32393][b]...and comes off the back of a lot more time with the Civic.

Dan

I bet it's "...a lot more time with the Civic...." considering that Honda has provided you (Matt) a daily driver for free.

[Legacywr]

There's a lot of resentful people on this thread!

[RocketRS]

Ali_T said:

RocketRS said:

That makes perfect sense. If you aren't interested in maximum performance in inclement weather, you may not need the extra capabilities of the RS. But, there are times that the added safety of AWD can be a big plus.

See, this is the thing I don't get. People seem to think that by being AWD, it makes the Focus (and Golf, RS3, A45 etc) somehow have more grip. They don't. All they have is more traction when you're using the acceleration. Under braking and neutral cornering they are at a disadvantage as they're carrying an extra 200kg that needs to be slowed down and gotten round the same corner. This is even more extreme in winter. The nasty winter of 2009, I spent on normal summer tyres initially and, believe me, the Subaru was at no advantage. If anything, it was a liability with the weight making itself all too apparent.

I've been there and done that with both an Evo and an STI. I have to say that neither endeared themselves at all to me. The Scoob had a phenomenal engine but very average chassis. The Evo only ever showed an advantage over 2WD cars on minuscule number of occasions and, as cliched as it might be, felt like it did it all for you. I'm glad I experienced them over 7 years, but I wouldn't go back to either, or the RS for the matter. They're far too much about ultimate pace and not involvement.

What you "...do don't get...", (your words, not mine) is the effect of active yaw control. That's a little surprising from a former EVO pilot. Everything you said is true for AWD that can't individually overspeed the rears. But AYC changes that equation significantly.

[MrBarry123]

I saw a grey CTR at Warwick services this morning and it looks quite unlike any other hatchback currently on the road - very impressed.

Still not a fan of the wheel design though.

[RocketRS]

SuperchargedVR6 said:

s2000db said:

Great article thanks!

Hmmmm, so RS beats M2, now Type R beats RS.. Very confusing time for those withe a good budget to spend imo...

Subjectively, in the hands of journalists, and they change their minds frequently. Consumers should drive them themselves and draw their own conclusions.

Well said Sir. Very well said. These guys should go into politics. They sure know whose buttering the bread.

[MrBarry123]

RocketRS said:

Well said Sir. Very well said. These guys should go into politics. They sure know whose buttering the bread.

No! Stop! For goodness sake!

You seem to have now changed your approach by saying that PH is biased towards the CTR because it has been given a long-term test car by Honda. How fking ridiculous!?

This is why your arguments hold no credibility for me. Everything you say that is vaguely intelligent is contradicted by some ridiculous statement that holds no truth in reality.

[RocketRS]

MrBarry123 said:

No! Stop! For goodness sake!

You seem to have now changed your approach by saying that PH is biased towards the CTR because it has been given a long-term test car by Honda. How fking ridiculous!?

This is why your arguments hold no credibility for me. Everything you say that is vaguely intelligent is contradicted by some ridiculous statement that holds no truth in reality.

You should be a Prophet....you can read more of what you want to see into a post than John of Patmos could read into a dream.

We all have biases. You have yours, I have mine, and yes....I know this will come as a shock to you....so do automobile journalists. I hope I haven't killed Santa Claus for you.

[HighwayStar]

RocketRS said:

MrBarry123 said:

No! Stop! For goodness sake!

You seem to have now changed your approach by saying that PH is biased towards the CTR because it has been given a long-term test car by Honda. How fking ridiculous!?

This is why your arguments hold no credibility for me. Everything you say that is vaguely intelligent is contradicted by some ridiculous statement that holds no truth in reality.

You should be a Prophet....you can read more of what you want to see into a post than John of Patmos could read into a dream.

We all have biases. You have yours, I have mine, and yes....I know this will come as a shock to you....so do automobile journalists. I hope I haven't killed Santa Claus for you.

Earlier you said something along the lines of each to their own it would be boring if we all like the same car blah blah but....
You then continue on your crusade to convince the world, anyone who has bought, prefers or is interested in the CTR or anything else that they are just wrong and should see things your way. If the RS does manage to retain 80% of its value of whatever in 6yrs then great for you but it still wouldn't make me want one.
You are clearly championing the RS and nowt wrong with that, but tell me this... Why are you so hell bent on trying to convince everyone that they are wrong and the RS is what they should have, they should like it even if they don't....?
Each to their own as long as they sing from your hymn sheet eh. You and Polo Joe could be great friends

[RocketRS]

HighwayStar said:

Earlier you said something along the lines of each to their own it would be boring if we all like the same car blah blah but....
You then continue on your crusade to convince the world, anyone who has bought, prefers or is interested in the CTR or anything else that they are just wrong and should see things your way. If the RS does manage to retain 80% of its value of whatever in 6yrs then great for you but it still wouldn't make me want one.
You are clearly championing the RS and nowt wrong with that, but tell me this... Why are you so hell bent on trying to convince everyone that they are wrong and the RS is what they should have, they should like it even if they don't....?
Each to their own as long as they sing from your hymn sheet eh. You and Polo Joe could be great friends

You're right about a lot of things. But, I don't give a rodents rear about converting anyone. I am interested in the facts. The fact is the Civic Type R is a great car. It's also a fact that it simply lacks the capabilities of the RS. Matt and Dan have asked us to ignore some of its obvious shortcomings.

Had Matt written another article rating the RS as the Top Pick in Hot Hatches it would have garnered very little attention. Setting up a scenario where they could plausibly reach a conclusion that's different from every one of the top automotive journals, gets them that needed attention. And Dan is a master of the "On the Other Hand" school of automotive creative writing. A little something for everyone.

But facts are facts. When viewed in the totality of its performance capabilities, the Civic R isn't even a close second to the RS. It can't get power down at low speeds, it's laggy, it understeers, and it's wet weather performance is downright abysmal compared to the RS. Few, if any, knowledgeable reviewers even rank it at the top of the FWD class. But who knows, if Honda gave me a Civic R to drive for a year; I too, might find more to love.

But, as you say, to each his own. I know a guy who bought his R because he thinks it's the "coolest looking" Hot Hatch ever. How do you argue that?

[JoeMarano]

ZX10R NIN said:

The Clio 200 still made 197BHP but had but had a smidge more torque it was released in 2009 I wonder how many Renault sold vs VW with the Polo GTI.


Well if you take how many are for sale used then VW really didn't sell any in 2009

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

You only have to look at the performance figure let alone the reviews to see why the Clio monstered the above on the road as well as in the sales charts.

If you're talking about the Clio 200 EDC that was far from universally (the gearbox was a big bone of contention) praised which is why a handful of people have bought them, but it did help push Megane RS sales by all accounts.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Tuesday 24th May 23:06

I don't think you got my point. My point was that Ford have had good reviews and sold one hundred kazillion ST's whereas renaukt had even better reviews (at that time in 2009) and barely anyone bought one...showing what idiots British people are always assuming Ford is great and British or something when it's notm

[LaurasOtherHalf]

HorneyMX5 said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

HorneyMX5 said:

It strikes me that these things are becoming too expensive to use on a trackday with any regularity unless you've got a lot of money to spend. The weight and the size of the tyres mean you'll spending big bucks replacing them and brake pads after day.

I know it's "the answer to everything" type response but a £1000 MX5 with some decent coilovers, decent pads and R888s will lap Llandow in under 50secs fairly easily. The costs of the pads and tyres are considerably less and with the lack of weight will last a hell of a lot longer. Plus you can do mad skidz yo! etc. Plus it'll use less fuel.

Dan's probably better placed than anyone having owned an MX5 (Sold it now I guess as no article on it for a while) and has also driven a large number of these on track to give an opinion on cheap MX5 vs expensive modern hot hatch for track thrills.

I couldn't fit the wife, pram, child and car seat in the MX5 as I can the Type-R. It's comfortably quicker on track too, even though the MX5 had suspension work and was wearing R888s.

As much as I loved my little MX5, the Type-R is an altogether more serious prospect on both road and track.

Oh I get that completely and I can understand why you chopped the mk3 in for it.

I was more thinking that if you were planning on doing a
lot of trackdays but budgets were limited then a cheap mx5 would give you 90% of the fun for 10% of the costs while keeping your nice new uber hatch for B road enjoyment and daily duties.

It's all horses for courses. I could afford all of these hatches if sold off my toys and daily but I certainly couldn't then afford to replace the tyres and brakes after 1 or 2 trackdays.

It's an interesting point, though I think the wear and tear thing is perhaps a little overstated. I've just done two days of open pit lane at spa and the 'ring and I haven't had to replace anything yet. And it doesn't get much tougher on cars than Spa!

But then you look at the performance these hot hatches have now and they're going to use consumables like any other powerful track cars will such as an M3, GT3, GTR etc

Out of interest, I did check out the price of parts for the Civic Type-R as I knew I'd be tracking it;

OEM continental tyres £129 each delivered
OEM brake disks front £135 p/pair
OEM brake pads front £125 a set

So we're not talking huge costs really and they will only get lower as more manufacturers start making replacement parts such as brakes etc. Then you've always got the option of running a spare set of wheels just for track for a grand or so.

More expensive than a Mazda most certainly, but for this driver, much more fun (subjective I know!) with twice the power.

[JoeMarano]

I thought mx5's were placed on track as some sort of nuisance to make the trackdays more interesting or to provide a cutting service to the grass or something

[HighwayStar]

RocketRS said:

HighwayStar said:

Earlier you said something along the lines of each to their own it would be boring if we all like the same car blah blah but....
You then continue on your crusade to convince the world, anyone who has bought, prefers or is interested in the CTR or anything else that they are just wrong and should see things your way. If the RS does manage to retain 80% of its value of whatever in 6yrs then great for you but it still wouldn't make me want one.
You are clearly championing the RS and nowt wrong with that, but tell me this... Why are you so hell bent on trying to convince everyone that they are wrong and the RS is what they should have, they should like it even if they don't....?
Each to their own as long as they sing from your hymn sheet eh. You and Polo Joe could be great friends

You're right about a lot of things. But, I don't give a rodents rear about converting anyone. I am interested in the facts. The fact is the Civic Type R is a great car. It's also a fact that it simply lacks the capabilities of the RS. Matt and Dan have asked us to ignore some of its obvious shortcomings.

Had Matt written another article rating the RS as the Top Pick in Hot Hatches it would have garnered very little attention. Setting up a scenario where they could plausibly reach a conclusion that's different from every one of the top automotive journals, gets them that needed attention. And Dan is a master of the "On the Other Hand" school of automotive creative writing. A little something for everyone.

But facts are facts. When viewed in the totality of its performance capabilities, the Civic R isn't even a close second to the RS. It can't get power down at low speeds, it's laggy, it understeers, and it's wet weather performance is downright abysmal compared to the RS. Few, if any, knowledgeable reviewers even rank it at the top of the FWD class. But who knows, if Honda gave me a Civic R to drive for a year; I too, might find more to love.
But, as you say, to each his own. I know a guy who bought his R because he thinks it's the "coolest looking" Hot Hatch ever. How do you argue that?

But the guy who bought the R, you still think he bought the wrong car...?
We get your love of the RS.
The wet weather performance of the CTR is abysmal, what it literally falls off the road at the first corner it's drive comes to in the wet? How ever did people manage before Audi and Ford give the public 4WD? Maybe everyone else doesn't push hard enough, RocketRS stylee, in the rain. And the rain... There's a lot of the country that doesn't rain as much as you think it does.I've had 2 TT Quattros and yes the were fine in the wet, but so were my proper hot hatches from back in the day.
So the RS is a quicker 0-62 and a bit quicker in less than idea conditions. The numbers, is that what it's all about then? Maybe I should just sell my 981 Cayman S and get myself an RS or at least forlornly in the faint hope that an owner will stupidly sells his
This dig at Matt as well, saying he has to give it to the CTR because he has it free from Honda. So you're ignoring the fact that he said he still thinks the Megan still has the edge?
Let it go, don't insult people's intelligence. You have what you want, most people in the market for these cars know what they want and like. They have minds of their own, like the guy you know who thinks the R is cool...

[Johnnytheboy]

JoeMarano said:

Well it's not exactly uncommon for faster cars to be slower...

[HorneyMX5]

JoeMarano said:

I thought mx5's were placed on track as some sort of nuisance to make the trackdays more interesting or to provide a cutting service to the grass or something

Meow!

[Axionknight]

MrBarry123 said:

I saw a grey CTR at Warwick services this morning and it looks quite unlike any other hatchback currently on the road - very impressed.

Still not a fan of the wheel design though.

Grey is definitely its colour IMO, although I am biased! Can't get on with it in white - it looks dreadful. The red is OK, the blue is nice too and would have been my second choice if a grey one wasn't as easy to come by as it was. Haven't seen a black one yet, so I can't comment on that.

Edited by Axionknight on Wednesday 25th May 07:18

[Axionknight]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

OEM continental tyres £129 each delivered
OEM brake disks front £135 p/pair
OEM brake pads front £125 a set

That's not bad at all actually, it wasn't something I considered prior to buying the car, which is quite unlike me as I'd normally research every last detail.

Pleasantly surprised. BRB, off to Knockhill!

[JoeMarano]

Johnnytheboy said:

Very clever