RE: Subaru Isle of Man TT car - new pictures

[Welshbeef]

wormus said:

And if my auntie had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Same thread every year, and the facts are the facts.
Bikes are fastest on the TT circuit and we will know soon enough how close the car will get. Shouldn't underestimate though the effort required to gain a couple of MPH over the 37.75 miles. You need to be faster everywhere and over a 6 lap race first and third place can be a few of seconds or less.

In racing terms, 15 seconds per lap average difference is massive.

Someone posted a table earlier of the incremental seconds per lap to get higher average speed. From memory it was 9 seconds over 38miles for each mph average increase. Those are the facts.

What was the 2015 fastest time v 2014 fastest time? How many seconds? These are facts and these are bikes pushing to the max year on year with countless laps and great lap knowledge.

[CypSIdders]

Welshbeef said:

These are facts and these are bikes pushing to the max year on year with countless laps and great lap knowledge.

Under race conditions, with a flying lap only on the last lap!

[k-ink]

PorkInsider said:

Name some proper race tracks where the lap record is held by a modified Subaru.

I'm actually quite interested to hear which circuits you think the Subaru would be quicker than a bike. I've no doubt that there are circuits where it could be quicker than a superbike, but I'm not sure which.

Edited by PorkInsider on Tuesday 31st May 11:55

As we all know the subaru is FAR from the fastest car on a track. Yet it is all we have here to represent four wheels. We are comparing a pretty decent car against the very fastest bikes in the world, on a track which is uniquely suited to bikes. So the challenge is rather skewed anyway. But it is all we have.

[scubadude]

This old thread again :-)

I have to chip in and say that every time this rears its ugly head I can't help but marvel at Tony Ponds Rover lap, half the power of a Superbike and still allegedly managed 100mph average!

All this nonsense/PR stunt from Subaru is fine for a laugh but to make a meaningful attempt you would need a full on LMP1 or Pikes peak level vehicle, 1000hp, tons (literally) of aero and tiny weight, the current car suggested is no doubt amazing but is still a glorified Max Power front cover with abit of rally magic sprinkled on it. If you want to match or beat the bikes you need 220+mph on the straights and have the aero to maintain speed on the bends the bikes can straight line, no "normal" car can do that.


Either way (bike or car) if you have an off at 100-200mph through a village or into a hedge on the TT it is massive so kudos to riders/driver, if he looses it in that car he could kill hundreds and wipe the TT out so fingers crossed he nails a good lap and they can the silly car laps for good.

[k-ink]

That is about the size of it. A real top end car with no limits would be something like a Pikes Peak entrant as you say. But until that happens this is all we have. It should take a chunk out of the time for four wheels, but it will still leave a lot on the table.

In comparison the bikes are right at the top of their game, taking full advantage of countless more development and practice, plus using their natural ability to straighten the countless kinks right out.



Now this is nippy, considering he is obviously going UP a mountain and wasn't even running correctly!

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pikes+peak+201...

Edited by k-ink on Tuesday 31st May 13:02

[PorkInsider]

I don't wish to enter into a protracted argument re: modifications, etc., but you seem to be under the impression that the bikes are purpose built, heavily modified pure bred racing machines. They're not. Even the fastest classes (Senior and Superbike) are based upon standard road bikes and modifications are very tightly governed. Comparing them with Pikes' Peak cars is way off the mark.

[Welshbeef]

10days to go for fun times.

[JD]

k-ink said:

Name any track in the world where a bike holds the record. There won't be any.

Fixed that for you

[CO2000]

k-ink said:

That is about the size of it. A real top end car with no limits would be something like a Pikes Peak entrant as you say. But until that happens this is all we have. It should take a chunk out of the time for four wheels, but it will still leave a lot on the table.

In comparison the bikes are right at the top of their game, taking full advantage of countless more development and practice, plus using their natural ability to straighten the countless kinks right out.



Now this is nippy, considering he is obviously going UP a mountain and wasn't even running correctly!

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pikes+peak+201...

Edited by k-ink on Tuesday 31st May 13:02

Nippy yes but this is fast! bike engine though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kufacVXlSc

[k-ink]

I was under the impression the top class of race bikes use engines which only last for the brief time they are out there. This video seems to indicate every single component was changed aside from the ECU...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDpwebkcsQA

[k-ink]

JD said:

k-ink said:

Name any track in the world where a bike holds the record. There won't be any.

Fixed that for you

Fair enough I was being cautious

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

Someone posted a table earlier of the incremental seconds per lap to get higher average speed. From memory it was 9 seconds over 38miles for each mph average increase. Those are the facts.

What was the 2015 fastest time v 2014 fastest time? How many seconds? These are facts and these are bikes pushing to the max year on year with countless laps and great lap knowledge.

Exactly my point, they are using every inch of the track and have the whole thing memorised with years of experience so the fact progress year on year is slow shows how close to the edge they are. The superbikes are already so powerful they are boardering on unridable so it's not simply a case that adding more power car or bike will lead to a much faster lap time.

[anonymous-user]

Anyway, given the nature of the circuit and the fact the car will need to spend most of its time flat out to stand a chance, I suspect it will blow up before the end anyway.

[k-ink]

I'm about to watch Guy Martin's Closer to the edge... again. Anyone who rides at TT is a legend. Respect to you all

[anonymous-user]

k-ink said:

JD said:

k-ink said:

Name any track in the world where a bike holds the record. There won't be any.

Fixed that for you

Fair enough I was being cautious

You mean yawntastic short circuits with their lovely wide, flat tarnac and forgiving gravel traps? Nobody cares about those, this is road racing, the last great thrill on 2 or 4 wheels, where bikes rule.

[k-ink]

Well yes, F1 is that tedious I haven't watched it in years now.

Yep the bikes rule TT. It would be a shame for that to change really. As you say, it is the last stand of its type anywhere. If an electric hyper car take the crown at some point it would be a bit of a shame in a way.

[PorkInsider]

Nanook said:

Aren't the superbikes based on World Super Bike regs?

Yes, FIM regs. I.e. standard valves, standard complete fuel injection system, standard rods (unless replaced with heavier ones of the same material), standard pistons, cylinders, crankshaft. And only allowed to rev 750rpm over standard, etc, etc. And of course the original road going bike it's based on must cost less than 40,000 EUR.

k-ink said:

I was under the impression the top class of race bikes use engines which only last for the brief time they are out there.

No, not at all. See above.

Well, they might only last the time they're out there because they're absolutely thrashed flat out for so long, but not because they're fragile, highly-strung racing engines as per F1 of years gone by.

[k-ink]

So in that Norton video clip posted above where they modify the entire bike to suit the race, presumably they then have to sell that exact spec to the general public shortly afterwards? Just so they can say the bikes are not modified. Is that the deal?

[wst]

PorkInsider said:

Nanook said:

Aren't the superbikes based on World Super Bike regs?

Yes, FIM regs. I.e. standard valves, standard complete fuel injection system, standard rods (unless replaced with heavier ones of the same material), standard pistons, cylinders, crankshaft. And only allowed to rev 750rpm over standard, etc, etc. And of course the original road going bike it's based on must cost less than 40,000 EUR.

What's an original road going bike qualify as? Could a manufacturer turn out 50 homologation special road bikes that should cost €100k (if they were aiming at keeping a similar profit margin) but sell them at €39,995, just to make their "standard" parts out of unobtanium?

[RobM77]

wormus said:

k-ink said:

JD said:

k-ink said:

Name any track in the world where a bike holds the record. There won't be any.

Fixed that for you

Fair enough I was being cautious

You mean yawntastic short circuits with their lovely wide, flat tarnac and forgiving gravel traps? Nobody cares about those, this is road racing, the last great thrill on 2 or 4 wheels, where bikes rule.

Actually it's not just short circuits, the same is true of the Nurburgring Nordschleife and countless hillclimbs on closed road courses, including sections of the IOM. It's basic physics and engineering; cars will always ultimately be faster for a multitude of reasons, most of them fairly obvious. The only reason that the bikes rule the laptimes on the full IOM, Northwest 200 and similar road courses is that quick cars don't race there so they've never had the opportunity to compete.

I'm happy with things left at that though, because running quick cars properly on such courses would be far too dangerous for spectators (and buildings!) and a big accident would have such nasty consequences as to threaten the existence of road racing, which would be a great shame. I'd be quite happy to see the IOM and other road races left alone and kept for the bikes, which, let's face it, are usually far more dramatic and exciting to watch than cars anyway. Funnily enough, the reason that bikes are usually so much better to watch than cars is actually because of the same reasons that make them slower: a lack of grip, a lack of stability over bumps and long braking zones, all of which give the ultimate recipe for exciting racing, whether short circuit or long circuit. Vice versa, the reason F1 car racing (and other formulae) has got so boring is actually because braking zones are too short, cars can't follow other cars because of downforce problems etc.

I have to confess that whilst Mark Higgins is a superb driver and the perfect choice for these demo runs, the consequences of a mechanical failure or other such incident sending the Subaru into spectators doesn't bear thinking about, so let's keep our fingers crossed for a safe demo run of the Subaru and then sit back and enjoy the bikes giving us one of racing's best spectacles.