In the news - Jaguar Land Rover Manager - Road Rage Crash

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berlintaxi said:

All lovely but that report says nothing about the type of car driven, this is all just your perception, look for the numerous threads on here regarding all Audi drivers are cocks, all BMW drivers are cocks etc. All sorts of cars get driven badly by all sorts of people, your perception maybe that it is predominately 4x4s, my experience of life on the road leads me to disagree with that opinion, neither of us are right or wrong.
What is wrong on your part in my opinion is to use a tragic incident such as this to try and push your own personal agenda.

For the umpteenth time, I haven't singled out 4x4s.

And how is it my personal agenda? What do I have to gain? I take offence at the suggestion that by raising awareness of the incident and making people perhaps think twice before driving aggressively, and seeking to discuss the reasons for the behaviour, that that is somehow a bad thing that shouldn't be talked about. Grow up.

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longblackcoat said:

So boil it down. Which cars do you think bring out the worst in people? You say this the behaviour displayed is 'typical' so you must have the evidence of your own eyes.

You're the guy bringing the assertion, so let's hear which cars are the worst driven. Then we can look at the accident stats for those cars and see if they're more likely to be involved in a collision which, logically, they would be, if they're being driven as badly as you state.

I don't know if (in fact I doubt that) aggressive, bullying driving is necessarily reflected by insurance claim stats. I think, I don't know, that some, not all, agressive, bullying drivers are probably technically competent drivers and therefore avoid actually having accidents in most instances. Tragically, in this case he was obviuosly just crap is very possible sense.

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carlove said:

I don't want to derail it even more, as I think it's utterly ridiculous you're all having this petty argument on a thread about a tragic crash(Didn't want to use the word accident) which resulted in two little girls receiving life changing injuries.

I drive a car most consider flash, it has silly fairy lights on the front and when the headlights are on they're really bright LEDs, it isn't a 4x4 though, it's an E Class. I would agree for the amount of them you see there is more aggression, bullying from Audis, BMWs and the like then you do from say an Astra or Focus.
However you probably notice it more when it's an Audi because of the "typical Audi driver" logic, when you see a Focus be aggressive you probably just think "what a knob" without taking much notice to what they're driving.

I personally think the worst, most aggressive, biggest risk taking drivers are in tatty heaps, normally early Zafiras with no remaining wheel trims or a Picasso, but that's for another thread.

Agree with just about all that.

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Sump said:

This is the problematic post.

"Utter brainless, selfish, arrogant tools the lot of them."

"Fairly typical (although obviously an extreme example) of the kind of behaviour drivers of cars like this "

OP is a tool trying to squirm out of it.

The problem is that some people seem to be more keen to express offence at my opinion than at the Discovery driver.

I explained that utter tools lot of them meant people who drive like arses.

If you don't believe me or want to believe that you somehow know better than me what I actually think even though you don't know me from Adam then that's up to you.

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s3fella said:

I dont agree with our "Forest Fan" per se, but you saying the "choice of car is irrelevant" not true. If this arrogant tt had made driven exactly the same in a mk2 fiesta or on a motorbike, the likely outcome would have bene far different. IMO there are SOME people that drive far less safely because they perceive (with some justification) that they are in a big safe vehicle and that "they will be ok" . Ie they are selfish tts who dont give a monkeys about anyone else.
But if the intent of the post you reply to was to say all Disco drivers are bells, well clearly that isn't true. But do some people drive big cars because they themselves are a fking liability on the roads, wither through incompetence or aggression...absolutely. IN a previous job we sold Land / range rovers as well as Hilux pickups and we did have customers buying them because little johnny or Mrs XYZ had crashed three Pugs and Fords into trees / other cars and dad / hubby wanted them to be "safe". Had to bit our lips to not suggest they get some fking driving lessons!!

As for this case, that (and he is a ) was clearly chasing that Mazda and just had absolutely no regard for anyone else. He needs to be locked up for as long as possible, and banned for a very very long time when he comes out. Poor family, dreadful for them.

Just to reiterate (again), I categorically did not say that all Discovery drivers are bells, or all drivers of any other type of car. That would clearly be stupid.

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Mastiff said:

So you think people that drive like that aren't tools?

Plus, my comment isn't aimed at anyone specific is it. You could drive a similar car and drive like a saint, then I wouldn't think you are a selfish tool. It's a very simple concept that is weirdly lost on some on here.

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Bradley1500 said:

Quite. Natural selection at its finest, had that of happened.

You don't want to derail it .... But you can't resist having a pop even though all these point have been gone over again and again.

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Mastiff said:

Reads as pretty specific to me.

You then compound the statement by branding a poster that calls you out on it "aggressive and [un]pleasant".

The end result of all this is so dreadful that none of the above is of any use to anyone of course - you just put "drivers of cars like these" all in the same boat as "Utter brainless, selfish, arrogant tools the lot of them." And then got all defensive when people disagreed.

Did I say all drivers ? I said "FAIRLY" typical, "KIND OF BEHAVIOUR", "OFTEN"

If you want to ignore everything I've said then that's up to you. If you can't comprehend then that's unfortunate.

I don't mind people having a differing opinion, but it is unpleasant and agressive and unnecesary to call a stranger a bell end. I will defend my position in those circumstances.

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stain said:

The tragic injuries and type of car have been done to death but he is also guilty of risking his passenger's life. Did the passenger try and stop him once he felt it was getting out of control? Either way the passenger has a lot to live with too.

I was wondering about the passenger too. I wonder at what point he would have spoken out and asked / told his mate / colleague / boss to get a grip. A dangerous thing sometimes the male ego / bravado.

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Havoc856 said:

To be brutally honest the OPs crusade post against 4x4 drivers was a bit silly..

Somehow most of PH cannot rise above the childishness of the 4x4 comment in the original post.

Edited by Havoc856 on Friday 27th May 11:59

Not again

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J4CKO said:

I see people on Facebook posting what a member of a certain group has done "Look at this bd, they are all like that you know....", that is the implication and its really just a way to further their own agenda, Lee Rigby seems to be the ultimate expression of this, poor guy was murdered in the street by lunatics and has ended up a bit of a poster boy for EDL types, yes it was terrible but had he been stabbed to death on a night out by a white bloke nobody would know his name, so a knob in an SUV does something bad, it must mean all SUV drivers are like that, no it doesnt, some may be, yes that type of car does attract the odd aggressive pillock but by and large most arent, had he been in a Focus would the thread have been posted at all ?

"that type of car does attract the odd aggressive pillock but by and large most aren't"

I'm glad we're in agreement. Thread posted to raise awareness and also because it has the added dimension of the driver reportedly being a senior manager at JLR, who make cars. This is a car forum.

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Before anyone gets offended, I'm not suggesting or claiming these are evidence of anything, nor I am picking on 4x4s, SUVs, BMWs or anything else; but I think they are interesting in the context of the discussion and the opinions voiced. Anything in these links which you take as criticism of you or your car is not directed at you personally.

I'll also reiterate my utter sympathy for the affected families (including the offender's family). By discussing other aspects such as this I'm not diminishing the impact of this or disrespecting anyone or anything. So please don't get your knickers twisted and if you do, go and have a beer in the sun!

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/10/ag...

http://www.bankrate.com/financing/cars/study-bmw-d...

http://www.drdriving.org/surveys/interpretations.h...

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/56524/suv-drivers...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread313152/p...

Edited by nffcforever on Friday 27th May 14:09

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lostkiwi said:

Keep digging. Soon you'll strike gold!

It's all on the surface so far.

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lostkiwi said:

Keep digging. Soon you'll strike gold!

It's all on the surface so far.

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k-ink said:

The research links are not a shock to anyone who has decades of driving experience. No, not everyone is the same. There are always plenty of exceptions to any rule. Yet it is still possible to notice stereotypes: the sort of people who cut in front, agressively undertake, never pull in, tail gate etc. In very broad brush strokes it is why certain vehicle drivers don't enjoy a wonderful motoring image, rightly or wrongly. These include all sorts, but the typical candidates would include white van drivers, German cars, 4x4s. Perhaps these sort of vehicles tend to be used by those in a rush more frequently. Who knows.

ps

Can you imagine some of the researchers looking for backing at a meeting? "I have an idea that BMW drivers are tossers. Can we research this more thoroughly?"

I think it likely that if you are driving 'this kind of vehicle' you are probably less likely to be a "victim" of others driving similar vehicles. i.e. They perhaps act more aggresibleyly, subconsciously or otherwise, towards smaller or "inferior" vehicles. Perhaps this could be partly why some don't recognise what you are saying and what I've said.

Edited by nffcforever on Friday 27th May 17:18

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SWoll said:

I thought a similar thing. I've found I drive fair more calmly and considerately than I did as a younger man as like most I've mellowed with age. I guess unfortunately some people remain inconsiderate, aggressive a******s whatever age they are.

I also assume the same thing about other drivers, it's far safer that way.

Agreed. His age, position, career, employer etc makes his actions even more astounding really. Utterly crazy behaviour. Deranged.

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k-ink said:

People certainly treat you differently depending upon which car you drive. I know as I spent some time running polar opposite cars on various occasions over the years. As I have not changed myself, this tells me more about how others must think, according to some sort of weird car status logic.

Maybe with some. Maybe with others they anticipate a certain behaviour based on past experiences.

I can't recall ever being tailgated by grandma in her Nissan Note for example.

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Muzzer79 said:

So, what's your point?

People who drive SUV's/BMWs should be banned?

or

SUV's/BMWs should be banned?

?

Erm, option (C): everyone should drive "properly" and not like a tool.

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Wills2 said:

Why are you even slightly enthusiastic about doing that? If you walked down the street would you gesture at and antagonise passers by? ?

Weird how when people get in each others way, it turns into a apology feast, I'm sorry, No I'm sorry, After you, No after you I insist etc....

But get in a car.....

Often not like that on the tube.

I think he meant he'd think harder before allowing his frustration get the better of him and gesturing etc. I don't think he meant that he goes out looking to antagonise, and now will still do, only with less enthusiasm. I think it's fairly clear he meant that. Seems a common problem on forums where people like to purposefully take the wrong end of the end of stick and run with it.

If I'm mistaken and he genuinely gets enthused about the thought of gesturing and antangonising then I defer, and he's a tool. But I doubt that's the case.

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MrBarry123 said:

Eh? It was. He didn't intentionally try to hit the other car did he?

I haven't said the bloke is innocent however he's guilty of manslaughter, not murder.

Again with people running off with the wrong end of the stick. It was accidental that he careered into the oncoming car. That wasn't intentional. There's no way it could have been; he couldn't see it until it was too late. However, his actions in driving like a tool, squeezing past the Mercedes and then making the right turn were obviously intentional. I don't think anyones suggesting his hand accidentally turned the wheel.