In the news - Jaguar Land Rover Manager - Road Rage Crash

[tenfour]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Very sad story. This does seem to be a case where the Discovery driver deserves a significant penalty; this wasn't a momentary lapse of concentration or error of judgement but a conscious decision to drive irresponsibly.

It does bring home the value of transporting ones offspring in a big, chunky car.

It is a sad story and quite a chilling one.

It hammers home just how easy it is to cross the line. I am quite certain that each and every one of us has at some point in our lives fallen victim to the red mist. It happens, especially when we're young and have a point to prove. I know I've been there many a time, albeit thankfully where the net result is just an exchange of coffee beans and both parties go their separate ways. I always feel like an utter pleb for taking the bait thereafter, regardless of who was at fault.

Ironically it takes courage to brush off these incidents and let the offending party have his accident somewhere else. Clearly on this occasion our JLR guy let his ego get the better of him, with tragic consequences.

And on that note I think this thread has gotten the better of itself by two opposing and extreme points of view. I'm willing to bet the JLR guy woke up the morning of the accident the same way as the rest of us. I'm willing to bet he had friends and family who loved and respected him. To all intents and purposes, he was probably just a normal guy, with quite a cool job by the sounds of it. And that's what makes this case all the more frightening: he's not a deranged child rapist; he's not an armed robber and he's not a big time drug dealer. Just a normal guy doing normal things until about five minutes before his loss of judgement changed his and the lives of several other people for ever.

To that end I don't think it's easy to sympathize with him, but I think a lot of us will certainly be able to empathize. And so it's not a case that he should be burned to the stake, but rather his actions should serve as a warning to us all. That is what we all need to take away from this story. He will serve his time and thereafter he will need to somehow come to terms with the fact that there is a family out there who have been permanently affected by his actions: two girls will grow up disabled with all that entails. Likewise, his life will never be the same again: his friends and family will have deserted him and he'll never hold down a respectable job again. His sentence is a life sentence; all the more so because he was, prior to the accident, clearly a normal guy capable of rational thought and remorse (even if it's not obvious from the reporting).

As a side note, the Mazda driver cannot reasonably be implicated in this: she will most likely never forget the events of that day and hence that is it for her. I have no doubt that she'll never react to anyone's road rage again. Therefore, to suggest that she is somehow accountable is just nonsense. I dare say she misjudged an opening prior to the 'chase' and was therefore put in a position where she clearly felt threatened enough to try and remove herself from danger.

Subsequently, our thoughts should be with the girls and her family, and the JLR driver, if only so that we remember just how easily our lives can turn upside down in a flash.

Frankly, I am utterly terrified by what happened here and I know that when I next jump in the car, I'll think twice before getting upset at someone else's driving standards.

And yes, like them or loathe them, there is merit in driving a big car.

[daemon]

I wonder would there be the same vindication of the front car if the driver had behaved in exactly the same way, but was being driven by a young male driver and perhaps in a hot hatch instead of by a woman driver?

Edited by daemon on Saturday 28th May 13:36

Edited by daemon on Saturday 28th May 13:36

[bitchstewie]

daemon said:

Out of curiosity, would there be the same vindication if the front car had behaved in exactly the same way, but was being driven by a young male driver and perhaps in a hot hatch instead of by a woman driver?

I'm not sure it makes a difference tbh.

In 20 years I see all kinds of tttish driving and I can honestly say I've never once felt any kind of urge to follow them or consider stopping.

I have been "guilty" of giving the odd smug "worked out well for you didn't it?" look when you pull up alongside someone who'd been driving like a total bell-end only to end up right next to you at the next set of lights, but if that's all it takes to light someone's blue touch-paper then frankly it's them with the issue.

[LA167]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but he got 4 1/2 years. So he'll no doubt be out in about 2! Scumbag

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36396341

[KungFuPanda]

daemon said:

I wonder would there be the same vindication of the front car if the driver had behaved in exactly the same way, but was being driven by a young male driver and perhaps in a hot hatch instead of by a woman driver?

Edited by daemon on Saturday 28th May 13:36

Edited by daemon on Saturday 28th May 13:36

The Insurers (if being tts) may go for the argument that the Mazda and Disco were racing and look to void the policy or pull in the insurers of the Mazda. I doubt it would happen though.

[Willy Nilly]

LA167 said:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but he got 4 1/2 years. So he'll no doubt be out in about 2! Scumbag

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36396341

He will only be out on license and will have various rules he has to keep to or he will be straight back inside. What ever happens he will be a convicted criminal.

What will you do with your life in the time he is incarcerated?

[tenfour]

KungFuPanda said:

The Insurers (if being tts) may go for the argument that the Mazda and Disco were racing and look to void the policy or pull in the insurers of the Mazda. I doubt it would happen though.

No. His insurer is still third party liable (for the Signum he hit) regardless of whether his policy is 'voided' on account of his actions (which I don't suspect it will be).

Remember, the actions of the Mazda or indeed the JLR driver up to the point he passed the Merc cannot be taken as absolute fact and hence the insurance company cannot categorically state that he was 'racing' or otherwise. The JLR driver was not convicted of this anyway.

The Mazda driver was not a party to the accident and hence she cannot be held liable either.

Right now, the victim's insurance will have paid out to him/his family accordingly and will engage JLR through a process of subrogation.

[KungFuPanda]

Hence why I said I doubt it would happen.

[tenfour]

Why say it all then?

[Artey]

Willy Nilly said:

On the other hand we have a man who obviously had a decent career, if the value of his company car is anything to go by, who is now in jail and his life pretty much in tatters. If he his just left there to rot it is quite likely he will end up a burden on the state for the rest of his life. You must keep in mind that no matter what punishment is metered out, the crash would still have happened and the two girls will still not be able to ever walk. So where do we go from here? He should certainly be punished, but he needs to come out a reformed man, not a hardened criminal. Maybe he could have some sort of anger management and leave jail to help other people avoid getting into the situation he got into?

Let me throw this out, how about this hypothetical situation - it wasn't the first time he did something like that. And he did it because he knew that chances of being sentenced properly are slim due to the pisspoor (sorrrrrry, civilised) system that we have. Had it not been for the dashcam he might have been able to get even lower sentence since we know he was denying any wrongdoing until the end. And this is why I don't believe in sobering stories about giving the guy a chance. You don't give a chance to a blatant chancer.

And that is why the system should be acting as a deterrent with punishments which would make chancers think twice before acting like tts.

[SWoll]

daemon said:

SWoll said:

I do question whether the anguish he is feeling is more about his personal outcome as a result of this tragedy rather than the girls but agree 100% that selfish fear of these consequences may be the only way to make certain people think twice about acting in this way. It's sad, but unfortunately that's the world we live in.

But does it? Will putting this guy in jail really stop any road rage incidents or bad driving on our roads?

Society demands punishment for things like this, yes, and its right that he got what he did as punishment, however are we really saying that 4.5 years in jail is what is required for this guy to see the error of his ways, OR that it will prevent road rage incidents?

Who knows? As it's been particularly well publicised perhaps a certain type of person will think for a split second longer before acting in this way. At the end of the day if it was to just reduce the number of incidents by a small percentage it would surely be worth it?

And I would pretty much guarantee that when he does get his license back in 6-8 years time he'll think twice before reacting in the way he did, so yes. Whether that's the fear of further jail time or his conscience having that affect only he will know.

[sealtt]

tenfour said:

It is a sad story and quite a chilling one.

It hammers home just how easy it is to cross the line. I am quite certain that each and every one of us has at some point in our lives fallen victim to the red mist. It happens, especially when we're young and have a point to prove. I know I've been there many a time, albeit thankfully where the net result is just an exchange of coffee beans and both parties go their separate ways. I always feel like an utter pleb for taking the bait thereafter, regardless of who was at fault.

Ironically it takes courage to brush off these incidents and let the offending party have his accident somewhere else. Clearly on this occasion our JLR guy let his ego get the better of him, with tragic consequences.

And on that note I think this thread has gotten the better of itself by two opposing and extreme points of view. I'm willing to bet the JLR guy woke up the morning of the accident the same way as the rest of us. I'm willing to bet he had friends and family who loved and respected him. To all intents and purposes, he was probably just a normal guy, with quite a cool job by the sounds of it. And that's what makes this case all the more frightening: he's not a deranged child rapist; he's not an armed robber and he's not a big time drug dealer. Just a normal guy doing normal things until about five minutes before his loss of judgement changed his and the lives of several other people for ever.

To that end I don't think it's easy to sympathize with him, but I think a lot of us will certainly be able to empathize. And so it's not a case that he should be burned to the stake, but rather his actions should serve as a warning to us all. That is what we all need to take away from this story. He will serve his time and thereafter he will need to somehow come to terms with the fact that there is a family out there who have been permanently affected by his actions: two girls will grow up disabled with all that entails. Likewise, his life will never be the same again: his friends and family will have deserted him and he'll never hold down a respectable job again. His sentence is a life sentence; all the more so because he was, prior to the accident, clearly a normal guy capable of rational thought and remorse (even if it's not obvious from the reporting).

As a side note, the Mazda driver cannot reasonably be implicated in this: she will most likely never forget the events of that day and hence that is it for her. I have no doubt that she'll never react to anyone's road rage again. Therefore, to suggest that she is somehow accountable is just nonsense. I dare say she misjudged an opening prior to the 'chase' and was therefore put in a position where she clearly felt threatened enough to try and remove herself from danger.

Subsequently, our thoughts should be with the girls and her family, and the JLR driver, if only so that we remember just how easily our lives can turn upside down in a flash.

Frankly, I am utterly terrified by what happened here and I know that when I next jump in the car, I'll think twice before getting upset at someone else's driving standards.

And yes, like them or loathe them, there is merit in driving a big car.

Very well put.

[bitchstewie]

Artey said:

Let me throw this out, how about this hypothetical situation - it wasn't the first time he did something like that. And he did it because he knew that chances of being sentenced properly are slim due to the pisspoor (sorrrrrry, civilised) system that we have. Had it not been for the dashcam he might have been able to get even lower sentence since we know he was denying any wrongdoing until the end. And this is why I don't believe in sobering stories about giving the guy a chance. You don't give a chance to a blatant chancer.

And that is why the system should be acting as a deterrent with punishments which would make chancers think twice before acting like tts.

I'm sure it's been covered but generally with people who do that kind of thing it's seldom they're that unlucky the first time they do it, they just don't get caught all the other times.

I'd guess matey boy has probably acted similarly before but as with most cases you just don't phone the police every time someone drives like a bit of a prick.

[F1GTRUeno]

A.J.M said:

F1GTRUeno said:

A.J.M said:

This is a good reason why road rage is not worth it. Keeping calm and being the better person wouldn't have seen that poor family suffer in such a horrible and cruel way.

The way you've phrased it makes it seem like you think the guy chose to get so angry. He clearly has anger issues however he's also acting like a normal human being.

The guy is clearly a complete and utter thunder and deserves to rot in jail but road rage is a natural thing. It's in our primal instincts to get mad when we're held up from whatever we need to do, inconveniences are treated with signals from the brain telling us to get pent up and frustrated.

Saying 'keep calm and be the better person' is all well and good but everyone gets the red mist at some point, over absolutely anything.

Doesn't make what happened any less tragic but it's obviously not as simple as you've made out.

He did chose to get that angry, if the story of events is correct, he had been chasing that Mazda for some time, he should have calmed down long before this crash happened.
Everyone has moments of being angry, myself included. We can beep horns, give fingers etc. That may be "natural" or such.

However, at no point have i thought it would be a good idea to deliberately chase someone down, drive like a complete knob etc.
There is a line between getting angry and going way too far with it. He is an adult, he should have acted like one.
Have you ever felt the need to chase someone down to get revenge on them?

Why did he chase that Mazda down the road and perform that stupid turn?
What was he going to do to the driver of the Mazda if/when he caught them/stopped them or traffic blocked her path?
What was the end plan for this? A telling off or assault etc.

I have and will state again the man is an arse, he deserves punished.
His job is to teach and instruct people who have bought land rover's how to drive them off road in a safe and controlled manner, that will involve being patient and calm with people.

Except he didn't choose to get angry. His brain sent the signals to get annoyed with being held up and that combined with the type of person he is and the lack of coping mechanisms he's clearly learnt meant he did what he did.

Considering every single person is completely different saying he SHOULD have done anything is redundant just like asking what his plan was at the end of all of this.

Society tells us that road rage is unacceptable, that driving like a complete tt and in the process injuring poor children and endangering lives is wrong, which it is. I'm not defending the guy at all.

The fact of the matter is that everybody, regardless of how calm they are and how well they've been brought up, trained, whatever is capable of having a moment where the red mist descends and you don't think at all, you act on instinct and clearly his instinct at the time was to act dangerously and endanger people's lives because he was pissed off. It just happens and it's part of who we are, human nature.

We're not machines, we can't just shut off when impulses are dictating to us that we should be angry. We get angry. Obviously this guy through a combination of everything he's experienced in life is an absolute thunder and he should be punished for acting like one accordingly but to sit at your computer and say 'oh well he should've done this' or 'I wouldn't have done this because I never get angry' is absolutely pointless.

[405dogvan]

Let's just be clear about something, I have absolutely zero sympathy for someone who drives as that LR was being driven - none, nada, nixt.

As in all things, you need to take responsibility for your actions - no excuses about 'red mist' or 'big car psychosis' or whatever other affluenza-like horsest you can think-up.

Sympathy goes to the family who were minding-their-own business and whos lives have been shattered - no sympathy to someone who was behaving like a MASSIVE cock.

There's not even a 'there but for the grace of God go I' thing here because IF I drove like that, I'd deserve what I got y'see - and so would you.

[F1GTRUeno]

405dogvan said:

Let's just be clear about something, I have absolutely zero sympathy for someone who drives as that LR was being driven - none, nada, nixt.

As in all things, you need to take responsibility for your actions - no excuses about 'red mist' or 'big car psychosis' or whatever other affluenza-like horsest you can think-up.

Sympathy goes to the family who were minding-their-own business and whos lives have been shattered - no sympathy to someone who was behaving like a MASSIVE cock.

There's not even a 'there but for the grace of God go I' thing here because IF I drove like that, I'd deserve what I got y'see - and so would you.

So you've never once done or said something in the heat of the moment because your emotions have gotten the better of you? Not once? You must be a zen master.

And you've never once felt better about yourself and driven a bit more recklessly because you're driving in a nicer car and it inflated your ego? Why ever buy a different car than whatever you started learning/driving in if that's the case. Like it or not, there are a huge amount of people who drive like cocks because of the car they're driving. They might be cocks to begin with, in fact, that's probably without doubt, but SUV man or BMW wker or whatever isn't just a stereotype for sts and giggles.

It doesn't excuse the guys actions in the slightest but it makes them understandable. He's human, therefore he's a .

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Saturday 28th May 14:27

[Dr Jekyll]

F1GTRUeno said:

And you've never once felt better about yourself and driven a bit more recklessly because you're driving in a nicer car and it inflated your ego?

No.

[daemon]

bhstewie said:

daemon said:

Out of curiosity, would there be the same vindication if the front car had behaved in exactly the same way, but was being driven by a young male driver and perhaps in a hot hatch instead of by a woman driver?

I'm not sure it makes a difference tbh.

In 20 years I see all kinds of tttish driving and I can honestly say I've never once felt any kind of urge to follow them or consider stopping.

I have been "guilty" of giving the odd smug "worked out well for you didn't it?" look when you pull up alongside someone who'd been driving like a total bell-end only to end up right next to you at the next set of lights, but if that's all it takes to light someone's blue touch-paper then frankly it's them with the issue.

No i meant relative to the fact that there is a view that the woman driver was "innocent" of any wrongdoing - if it had been some young bloke in a Fiesta ST who had flipped the bird would everyone feel the same?

[F1GTRUeno]

Dr Jekyll said:

F1GTRUeno said:

And you've never once felt better about yourself and driven a bit more recklessly because you're driving in a nicer car and it inflated your ego?

No.

So you've never once broken the speed limit, gotten angry at another driver nor bought a new car because it was nicer than the one you currently had?

[98elise]

bhstewie said:

daemon said:

Out of curiosity, would there be the same vindication if the front car had behaved in exactly the same way, but was being driven by a young male driver and perhaps in a hot hatch instead of by a woman driver?

I'm not sure it makes a difference tbh.

In 20 years I see all kinds of tttish driving and I can honestly say I've never once felt any kind of urge to follow them or consider stopping.

I have been "guilty" of giving the odd smug "worked out well for you didn't it?" look when you pull up alongside someone who'd been driving like a total bell-end only to end up right next to you at the next set of lights, but if that's all it takes to light someone's blue touch-paper then frankly it's them with the issue.

I agree. A hand gesture may be provocative, but if the receiver flies into such a rage that they will drive a 2 ton vehicle at speed into oncoming traffic its them that has a problem.

Edited by 98elise on Saturday 28th May 17:57