In the news - Jaguar Land Rover Manager - Road Rage Crash
Discussion
zarjaz1991 said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
That's hardly a unique position. However, civilised people are unlikely to agree your proposal of stoning to death.
Very common problem with people who have children. They seem to think they have some sort of unique perspective on the world that needs explaining to everyone else.AW111 said:
F1GTRUeno said:
Except he didn't choose to get angry. His brain sent the signals to get annoyed with being held up and that combined with the type of person he is and the lack of coping mechanisms he's clearly learnt meant he did what he did.
Considering every single person is completely different saying he SHOULD have done anything is redundant just like asking what his plan was at the end of all of this.
Society tells us that road rage is unacceptable, that driving like a complete t
t and in the process injuring poor children and endangering lives is wrong, which it is. I'm not defending the guy at all.
The fact of the matter is that everybody, regardless of how calm they are and how well they've been brought up, trained, whatever is capable of having a moment where the red mist descends and you don't think at all, you act on instinct and clearly his instinct at the time was to act dangerously and endanger people's lives because he was pissed off. It just happens and it's part of who we are, human nature.
We're not machines, we can't just shut off when impulses are dictating to us that we should be angry. We get angry. Obviously this guy through a combination of everything he's experienced in life is an absolute thunder and he should be punished for acting like one accordingly but to sit at your computer and say 'oh well he should've done this' or 'I wouldn't have done this because I never get angry' is absolutely pointless.
You may not choose to get angry, but you can choose how you act when angry.Considering every single person is completely different saying he SHOULD have done anything is redundant just like asking what his plan was at the end of all of this.
Society tells us that road rage is unacceptable, that driving like a complete t
t and in the process injuring poor children and endangering lives is wrong, which it is. I'm not defending the guy at all.The fact of the matter is that everybody, regardless of how calm they are and how well they've been brought up, trained, whatever is capable of having a moment where the red mist descends and you don't think at all, you act on instinct and clearly his instinct at the time was to act dangerously and endanger people's lives because he was pissed off. It just happens and it's part of who we are, human nature.
We're not machines, we can't just shut off when impulses are dictating to us that we should be angry. We get angry. Obviously this guy through a combination of everything he's experienced in life is an absolute thunder
and he should be punished for acting like one accordingly but to sit at your computer and say 'oh well he should've done this' or 'I wouldn't have done this because I never get angry' is absolutely pointless.This was not a momentary brain snap / throw a punch / lean on the horn scenario - LR man chased another vehicle for several miles. There is nothing instinctive about that - it was deliberate, ongoing, aggressive and dangerous behaviour.
Once you make the snap reaction to anger it's very difficult to control what happens next.
Obviously society dictates as a grown man, he should've been able to calm down but every single person is different and so suggesting he should've done one thing or another is completely redundant.
Fact of the matter is, someone did something to piss him off and he remained pissed off until it came to a tragic conclusion. He's probably still pissed off now. Anger management would probably help but some people are just the way they are for a variety of reasons. We're all products of our environment, our upbringing, etc and that's what makes us unique.
FWIW I think the guy should rot in prison for a long time and probably be forced to retake his driving test from scratch so he can unlearn all of his bad habits but that's by the bye
F1GTRUeno said:
Deliberate, ongoing, aggressive and dangerous behaviour based on a snap reaction brought on by being given the finger by a driver that was holding him up. It WAS a momentary brain snap/throw a punch/lean on the horn scenario that started a chain reaction and got way, way out of hand due to a complete lack of coping mechanisms the LR driver has.
Once you make the snap reaction to anger it's very difficult to control what happens next.
Obviously society dictates as a grown man, he should've been able to calm down but every single person is different and so suggesting he should've done one thing or another is completely redundant.
Fact of the matter is, someone did something to piss him off and he remained pissed off until it came to a tragic conclusion. He's probably still pissed off now. Anger management would probably help but some people are just the way they are for a variety of reasons. We're all products of our environment, our upbringing, etc and that's what makes us unique.
FWIW I think the guy should rot in prison for a long time and probably be forced to retake his driving test from scratch so he can unlearn all of his bad habits but that's by the bye
Nonsense. He had plenty of time to calm down and instead decided to try to frighten a woman at all costs. He was having fun being a nasty bully and crippled some innocent children in the process.Once you make the snap reaction to anger it's very difficult to control what happens next.
Obviously society dictates as a grown man, he should've been able to calm down but every single person is different and so suggesting he should've done one thing or another is completely redundant.
Fact of the matter is, someone did something to piss him off and he remained pissed off until it came to a tragic conclusion. He's probably still pissed off now. Anger management would probably help but some people are just the way they are for a variety of reasons. We're all products of our environment, our upbringing, etc and that's what makes us unique.
FWIW I think the guy should rot in prison for a long time and probably be forced to retake his driving test from scratch so he can unlearn all of his bad habits but that's by the bye
There is no chance he should ever drive again. And I would support a 10 year jail sentence.
zarjaz1991 said:
janesmith1950 said:
Do you think he crashed into the oncoming car on purpose?
He lost his temper in purpose, he drove like a nob on purpose, so yes, in all truth, he did.He has forefeit any right to be a normal part of society. If he must live, then he must be under special restriction for the remainder of his life. He's mentally unstable and highly dangerous.
He should do the one and only decent and honourable action left open to him, and end his own life.
Edited by zarjaz1991 on Sunday 29th May 08:18
Artey said:
A family doesn't stop being a unit that can support itself just because one of its members goes into jail for years. Even if we assume that it does having that member work while inside and recoup the cost of the upkeep and the cost of benefits to the family is surely the better option than having no punishment just because "if we penailse the family will suffer". Hell no, in most cases the crims wouldn't work anyway and their families would be on benefits so not only do we not punish but also lose money and promote further criminal activities by not having any sort of real deterrent. And this is what the criminal system should be a huge hammer that hangs over everyone's heads reminding them that if they fk up they'll pay the price. And if you are an honest member of society that hammer will not affect you. That's how you keep a healthy body - by preventing diseases not by treating them after the fact by some leftwing withcraft that doesn't work.
In response to all of your posts in this thread. k up they'll pay the price. And if you are an honest member of society that hammer will not affect you. That's how you keep a healthy body - by preventing diseases not by treating them after the fact by some leftwing withcraft that doesn't work.In a functioning society having human rights as an all or nothing thing. Same with capital punishment. It's nothing to do with leftie mentalism. If people are given the opportunity to change human rights that is a very bad thing. Just look at what happened in the 2nd World War...
Look at what happens in the US, people are killed as a punishment, do you think that's productive? It clearly doesn't work as a deterrent over there (Sandy Hook, Columbine, I could go on and on) People in Saudi having limbs chopped off, people getting stoned for adultery. Sounds pretty backwards to me!
Plenty of science out there that shows 'tough sentencing' etc doesn't work and only increases reoffending. Some criminals are so low that deterrents won't do anything. If you give them a chance to become a normal person then they start to change. Rehabilitation is proven. Link.
ORD said:
F1GTRUeno said:
Deliberate, ongoing, aggressive and dangerous behaviour based on a snap reaction brought on by being given the finger by a driver that was holding him up. It WAS a momentary brain snap/throw a punch/lean on the horn scenario that started a chain reaction and got way, way out of hand due to a complete lack of coping mechanisms the LR driver has.
Once you make the snap reaction to anger it's very difficult to control what happens next.
Obviously society dictates as a grown man, he should've been able to calm down but every single person is different and so suggesting he should've done one thing or another is completely redundant.
Fact of the matter is, someone did something to piss him off and he remained pissed off until it came to a tragic conclusion. He's probably still pissed off now. Anger management would probably help but some people are just the way they are for a variety of reasons. We're all products of our environment, our upbringing, etc and that's what makes us unique.
FWIW I think the guy should rot in prison for a long time and probably be forced to retake his driving test from scratch so he can unlearn all of his bad habits but that's by the bye
Nonsense. He had plenty of time to calm down and instead decided to try to frighten a woman at all costs. He was having fun being a nasty bully and crippled some innocent children in the process.Once you make the snap reaction to anger it's very difficult to control what happens next.
Obviously society dictates as a grown man, he should've been able to calm down but every single person is different and so suggesting he should've done one thing or another is completely redundant.
Fact of the matter is, someone did something to piss him off and he remained pissed off until it came to a tragic conclusion. He's probably still pissed off now. Anger management would probably help but some people are just the way they are for a variety of reasons. We're all products of our environment, our upbringing, etc and that's what makes us unique.
FWIW I think the guy should rot in prison for a long time and probably be forced to retake his driving test from scratch so he can unlearn all of his bad habits but that's by the bye
There is no chance he should ever drive again. And I would support a 10 year jail sentence.
It doesn't condone it, it doesn't excuse it, it doesn't change the fact that guy is obviously a complete nobber and has picked up some truly horrible personal traits that led to this happening but it's not nonsense.
You can't just say 'he should've done X instead of Y' from the comfort of your sofa/computer chair/whatever because you weren't that person in that mindset at that time. Nobody has a clue apart from him exactly what he was thinking, exactly what he was doing and exactly what he might've done had he managed to stop the woman, only he can answer that but I wager he wasn't thinking at all and the rage fully took over. At that point all judgement is clouded and bad things happen and you won't find a single person alive that hasn't in the past or won't in the future experience a moment like that in their life.
We're descended from animals at the end of the day, we still have those primal instincts in our DNA. Basically, we're s
t.I think the difficulty with that line of reasoning is that you can use it to explain just about anything.
When you read stories of mothers killing their children there's always a mixture of opinions between the stone em/hang em/let them hang themselves then stone them mob and those who argue that mental illness is something you have no control over.
I don't see any kind of evidence of mental illness here (not sure anything was presented at trial?) or anything that explains away the guys actions other than he seemed to have an adult temper tantrum.
4 years seems on the low side but I genuinely have no idea what I think is right.
When you read stories of mothers killing their children there's always a mixture of opinions between the stone em/hang em/let them hang themselves then stone them mob and those who argue that mental illness is something you have no control over.
I don't see any kind of evidence of mental illness here (not sure anything was presented at trial?) or anything that explains away the guys actions other than he seemed to have an adult temper tantrum.
4 years seems on the low side but I genuinely have no idea what I think is right.
grumbledoak said:
4 1/2 years is not enough. Even more so given his lying throughout the trial. I wonder what the maximum the judge could have given was - does anyone know?
What a tosser.
Five years is, IIRC, the maximum for this offence. He would have got an automatic reduction for a guilty plea so, based on sentencing guidelines (as opposed to Wailist sentiment) he got pretty much full whackWhat a tosser.
F1GTRUeno said:
I'm not arguing that he didn't have sufficient time to calm down, or should've taken a different course of action but simply that people lose their minds over the smallest of things, it's therefore understandable that he did what he did.
It doesn't condone it, it doesn't excuse it, it doesn't change the fact that guy is obviously a complete nobber and has picked up some truly horrible personal traits that led to this happening but it's not nonsense.
You can't just say 'he should've done X instead of Y' from the comfort of your sofa/computer chair/whatever because you weren't that person in that mindset at that time. Nobody has a clue apart from him exactly what he was thinking, exactly what he was doing and exactly what he might've done had he managed to stop the woman, only he can answer that but I wager he wasn't thinking at all and the rage fully took over. At that point all judgement is clouded and bad things happen and you won't find a single person alive that hasn't in the past or won't in the future experience a moment like that in their life.
We're descended from animals at the end of the day, we still have those primal instincts in our DNA. Basically, we're st.
What a load of b*****ks.It doesn't condone it, it doesn't excuse it, it doesn't change the fact that guy is obviously a complete nobber and has picked up some truly horrible personal traits that led to this happening but it's not nonsense.
You can't just say 'he should've done X instead of Y' from the comfort of your sofa/computer chair/whatever because you weren't that person in that mindset at that time. Nobody has a clue apart from him exactly what he was thinking, exactly what he was doing and exactly what he might've done had he managed to stop the woman, only he can answer that but I wager he wasn't thinking at all and the rage fully took over. At that point all judgement is clouded and bad things happen and you won't find a single person alive that hasn't in the past or won't in the future experience a moment like that in their life.
We're descended from animals at the end of the day, we still have those primal instincts in our DNA. Basically, we're s
t.'understandable', 'we're s
t'? Speak for yourself.I'm sure we've all been in situations where someone had done something to wind us up whilst driving, and based on what I've read I'm sure in a lot of cases they were far worse than the supposed 'provocation' in this case. I can certainly guarantee to have never responded in a way even close to comparison with this guy as I'm sure the can vast majority of sane individuals who post here and as such I can sit here in my comfy armchair and state exactly that.
I'm of the opinion that the majority of us have evolved considerably and have a decent level of self control, respect and consideration for out fellow man. The fact that you don't think this is the case says a lot more about your outlook than society in general IMHO.
Swanny87 said:
In response to all of your posts in this thread.
In a functioning society having human rights as an all or nothing thing. Same with capital punishment. It's nothing to do with leftie mentalism. If people are given the opportunity to change human rights that is a very bad thing. Just look at what happened in the 2nd World War...
Look at what happens in the US, people are killed as a punishment, do you think that's productive? It clearly doesn't work as a deterrent over there (Sandy Hook, Columbine, I could go on and on) People in Saudi having limbs chopped off, people getting stoned for adultery. Sounds pretty backwards to me!
Plenty of science out there that shows 'tough sentencing' etc doesn't work and only increases reoffending. Some criminals are so low that deterrents won't do anything. If you give them a chance to become a normal person then they start to change. Rehabilitation is proven. Link.
It's funny how people interpret things to fit their own agenda. No offense. In a functioning society having human rights as an all or nothing thing. Same with capital punishment. It's nothing to do with leftie mentalism. If people are given the opportunity to change human rights that is a very bad thing. Just look at what happened in the 2nd World War...
Look at what happens in the US, people are killed as a punishment, do you think that's productive? It clearly doesn't work as a deterrent over there (Sandy Hook, Columbine, I could go on and on) People in Saudi having limbs chopped off, people getting stoned for adultery. Sounds pretty backwards to me!
Plenty of science out there that shows 'tough sentencing' etc doesn't work and only increases reoffending. Some criminals are so low that deterrents won't do anything. If you give them a chance to become a normal person then they start to change. Rehabilitation is proven. Link.
Nowhere did I mention capital punishment, or chopping limbs off or any other radical nonsense like that. My point is and has been that those people should be paying their debt back to society through work, doing things that the society can use. And it has to be tangible like roads, etc. and not one of the social service bulls
t that does nothing. This according to some people on here is a blasphemy and equals going back to stone ages.SWoll said:
What a load of b*****ks.
'understandable', 'we're st'? Speak for yourself.
I'm sure we've all been in situations where someone had done something to wind us up whilst driving, and based on what I've read I'm sure in a lot of cases they were far worse than the supposed 'provocation' in this case. I can certainly guarantee to have never responded in a way even close to comparison with this guy as I'm sure the can vast majority of sane individuals who post here and as such I can sit here in my comfy armchair and state exactly that.
I'm of the opinion that the majority of us have evolved considerably and have a decent level of self control, respect and consideration for out fellow man. The fact that you don't think this is the case says a lot more about your outlook than society in general IMHO.
Americans are about to vote Donald Trump into power and you're telling me we've evolved to have a decent level of self control, respect and consideration for our fellow man? ISIS are beheading and blowing up innocent people left right and centre, immigrants are being treated like dogs'understandable', 'we're s
t'? Speak for yourself.I'm sure we've all been in situations where someone had done something to wind us up whilst driving, and based on what I've read I'm sure in a lot of cases they were far worse than the supposed 'provocation' in this case. I can certainly guarantee to have never responded in a way even close to comparison with this guy as I'm sure the can vast majority of sane individuals who post here and as such I can sit here in my comfy armchair and state exactly that.
I'm of the opinion that the majority of us have evolved considerably and have a decent level of self control, respect and consideration for out fellow man. The fact that you don't think this is the case says a lot more about your outlook than society in general IMHO.
t, people are starving and dying whilst the 1% sit on their vast reserves of cash and you think we've got consideration for our fellow man?I know it's the media's job to report on the worst of human kind but how many times a year/month/week do you see the news and hear a headline and think 'bloody hell I didn't think we could sink any lower'.
Society is a construct of common interests that dictate to us that we should act in a certain manner and by and large, we do but to deny that everyone isn't capable of a moment of sheer madness when it's been in us since the very beginning and will continue to be so is ridiculous. We're not robots, we live off our instincts and our impulses just like any other animal. We're supposed to have coping mechanisms to fight our primal urges but they're not always effective as shown by this absolute whopper.
If I continued to argue this with you until we were blue in the face I bet you'd want to leap through the computer screen and bash my lights out eventually. It's not hard to push someone into doing something rash and violent with the right amount of prodding.
The fact of the matter is this guy had his buttons pressed enough to explode. We don't know the factors that led up to the original incident, we have no idea what kind of state of mind he was in when he got behind the wheel of his Land Rover so to suggest otherwise is a load of s
t. Like I said, and you've really, really got to read this part. It doesn't make what he did acceptable, it doesn't condone or excuse his quite clearly fking ridiculous behaviour and the man deserves the book thrown at him and more but anger is a natural reaction and therefore it's understandable.Until you know all there is to know about him as a person and the circumstances that lead up to the incident then saying he SHOULD have done this or that you WOULDN'T have done this or that is completely redundant.
We can agree he's a f
king though and this is a tragic accident though right?Anger is a caveman survival emotion built into every single one of us. What we should do is over ride this with our brains by engaging a sense of perspective in every day life. Clearly getting angry in a survival situation like a fight was vital to our existence at some point. Getting angry in a queue of modern day traffic is pointless. Some need to get some perspective!
k-ink said:
Anger is a caveman survival emotion built into every single one of us. What we should do is over ride this with our brains by engaging a sense of perspective in every day life. Clearly getting angry in a survival situation like a fight was vital to our existence at some point. Getting angry in a queue of modern day traffic is pointless. Some need to get some perspective!
I agree with everything you say, but I'm guessing you are a chilled person?I have always been hot headed, particularly when younger and have done some amazingly stupid things; that looking back make me cringe.
Sure I've mellowed with age a little but what I'm trying to say is that when a genuine red mist descends it's almost impossible to control but easy to look back on and regret.
I say this with absolutely no attachment/link/empathy/condoning or whatever for the subject in this thread. As my other posts have suggested; I'm disgusted by it.
I'm merely trying to say that unless you are the type to suffer from these moments (that often have underlying causes) it's easy to say that everyone should just stop before regretting an action. It's just like a lightening thing that happens without control.
Luckily with me I've never done anything like this character
k-ink said:
Anger is a caveman survival emotion built into every single one of us. What we should do is over ride this with our brains by engaging a sense of perspective in every day life. Clearly getting angry in a survival situation like a fight was vital to our existence at some point. Getting angry in a queue of modern day traffic is pointless. Some need to get some perspective!
Our instincts have been honed and refined over thousands of years. We have only been driving cars in an evolutionary blink of an eye and these instincts can't be overridden that quickly. lord trumpton said:
I agree with everything you say, but I'm guessing you are a chilled person?
I have always been hot headed, particularly when younger and have done some amazingly stupid things; that looking back make me cringe.
Sure I've mellowed with age a little but what I'm trying to say is that when a genuine red mist descends it's almost impossible to control but easy to look back on and regret.
I say this with absolutely no attachment/link/empathy/condoning or whatever for the subject in this thread. As my other posts have suggested; I'm disgusted by it.
I'm merely trying to say that unless you are the type to suffer from these moments (that often have underlying causes) it's easy to say that everyone should just stop before regretting an action. It's just like a lightening thing that happens without control.
Luckily with me I've never done anything like this character
^^ this. I was given the nick name "redmist" for a bit in my 20s.. won't go into the details but i consider myself lucky not to get into more trouble than i did.. I have always been hot headed, particularly when younger and have done some amazingly stupid things; that looking back make me cringe.
Sure I've mellowed with age a little but what I'm trying to say is that when a genuine red mist descends it's almost impossible to control but easy to look back on and regret.
I say this with absolutely no attachment/link/empathy/condoning or whatever for the subject in this thread. As my other posts have suggested; I'm disgusted by it.
I'm merely trying to say that unless you are the type to suffer from these moments (that often have underlying causes) it's easy to say that everyone should just stop before regretting an action. It's just like a lightening thing that happens without control.
Luckily with me I've never done anything like this character
Very rarely happens to me behind the wheel, the last one was when an A3 decided to overtake on a blind bend across hashed lines giving me split seconds to apply the anchors and swerve, car got a bit sideways and we narrowly avoided a head on, my daughter was in the car next to me (6) and screamed, fortunately for the driver of the A3 the mist cleared as quickly as it arrived: 1 of those moments i wish i had a dash cam; i could have dealt with the matter later. Thank god leather is easy to clean.. If you have never had the readmist the scene in 'the family' with De Niro when he is hosting a BBQ illustrates the sort of thing that happens in my head..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkAx2HQgViI
I still get the occasional moment, but on the whole i'm pretty chilled these days..
This incident is a tragedy and I pray i'm never in the same position as the family on the receiving end of this.. he'll be out in a little over 2 years (by which time I hope his a
hole can be used as a wind sock), and off the road for 6: absolutely unforgivable and i hope it haunts him every minute of every day for the rest of his life... before the trial the bd was completely denying it, he was only showing remorse to get a lighter sentence, glad the judge saw through it. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff