In the news - Jaguar Land Rover Manager - Road Rage Crash
Discussion
F1GTRUeno said:
405dogvan said:
Let's just be clear about something, I have absolutely zero sympathy for someone who drives as that LR was being driven - none, nada, nixt.
As in all things, you need to take responsibility for your actions - no excuses about 'red mist' or 'big car psychosis' or whatever other affluenza-like horses
t you can think-up.
Sympathy goes to the family who were minding-their-own business and whos lives have been shattered - no sympathy to someone who was behaving like a MASSIVE cock.
There's not even a 'there but for the grace of God go I' thing here because IF I drove like that, I'd deserve what I got y'see - and so would you.
So you've never once done or said something in the heat of the moment because your emotions have gotten the better of you? Not once? You must be a zen master.As in all things, you need to take responsibility for your actions - no excuses about 'red mist' or 'big car psychosis' or whatever other affluenza-like horses
t you can think-up.Sympathy goes to the family who were minding-their-own business and whos lives have been shattered - no sympathy to someone who was behaving like a MASSIVE cock.
There's not even a 'there but for the grace of God go I' thing here because IF I drove like that, I'd deserve what I got y'see - and so would you.
You do not deserve sympathy because your stupidity resulted in someone else being harmed - how could you even consider that??
"I drive like an idiot sometimes so it's OK that other people do"
Imagine it was your kids - would you still think like that?"
"Hey, my kids are crippled but it was just bad luck, I've driven like a prick so it's fine, I'll wheel them around without any bad feeling to the driver..."
Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 30th May 20:47
F1GTRUeno said:
I'm not arguing that he didn't have sufficient time to calm down, or should've taken a different course of action but simply that people lose their minds over the smallest of things, it's therefore understandable that he did what he did.
Your take on this is absolutely moronic. Understandable? Wtf are you trying to kid?So a woman gave him the finger (allegedly?). Bless. If that was it, then nothing happened, nothing at all to warrant anything more than a curse under the breath.
Large, popular Forums that attract folk from all walks of Life, with varying IQ's, experiences and Agendas will from time to time show viewpoints that go against what 'normal' or 'average' folk will find acceptable.
Or is it just Internet Bravado or Internet Empathy by those who want to be seen as something they aren't in 'real life'? Are we seeing Posters on this Thread who empathise and sympathise with the Driver of the Discovery demonstrating their seemingly Neanderthal viewpoints in an attempt to make us all look at how magnificent their Internet Willy's are? The 'Grr Grr Grr, I'm an Internet Hardman' brigade who crop up in many Threads? Who, in reality, are probably cuckolded, balding tubbies sweating feverishly over their PC' keyboards, drooling after the image they want to project in their Readers minds?
Or am I being overly harsh?
The Discovery driver allowed his anger to control his actions unforgivably; he is 100% at fault and no actions taken by anyone else involved are to blame in any way for the eventual outcome. This individual does not deserve to be entitled to a License to drive. End of. My own opinion, of course
Or is it just Internet Bravado or Internet Empathy by those who want to be seen as something they aren't in 'real life'? Are we seeing Posters on this Thread who empathise and sympathise with the Driver of the Discovery demonstrating their seemingly Neanderthal viewpoints in an attempt to make us all look at how magnificent their Internet Willy's are? The 'Grr Grr Grr, I'm an Internet Hardman' brigade who crop up in many Threads? Who, in reality, are probably cuckolded, balding tubbies sweating feverishly over their PC' keyboards, drooling after the image they want to project in their Readers minds?
Or am I being overly harsh?
The Discovery driver allowed his anger to control his actions unforgivably; he is 100% at fault and no actions taken by anyone else involved are to blame in any way for the eventual outcome. This individual does not deserve to be entitled to a License to drive. End of. My own opinion, of course
I'm not sure that I am seeing those posters as having empathy for the guilty man quite as you allude. I'm reading most of their remarks as warnings that no one is exempt from outbursts of blind rage it is just that it takes different triggers and situations for it to manifest. I'd say that those who have experienced their own blind rage events, which I think shows extreme candidness to actually admit to in a thread such as this, are possibly safer than those who fervently believe blind rage could never happen to them. Denial is always dangerous whereas with acknowledgement can come understanding, coping and management.
I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
DonkeyApple said:
I'm not sure that I am seeing those posters as having empathy for the guilty man quite as you allude. I'm reading most of their remarks as warnings that no one is exempt from outbursts of blind rage it is just that it takes different triggers and situations for it to manifest. I'd say that those who have experienced their own blind rage events, which I think shows extreme candidness to actually admit to in a thread such as this, are possibly safer than those who fervently believe blind rage could never happen to them. Denial is always dangerous whereas with acknowledgement can come understanding, coping and management.
I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
You're going to have to remind me again what it was that was so terrible about the woman's driving that made him behave like that. I understood that it was because she held him up.I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
I also understand she gave him the finger. Do I get the finger very often? No, I like to think that my driving isn't so bad that I get that very often.
Disregard the crash for a moment, and just think about how he undertook that car then turned hard right across it's bows, in pursuit of the woman. If he caught the woman what was he going to do, precisely? Drag her out of the car and beat her to a pulp in front of her children?
Those who are saying that this type of response to being held up is "understandable"... well, there aren't the words.
If they get so angry at being held up maybe they should think about the hold-ups they cause themselves or may cause. After all this guy who was so apoplectic about being held up, he went on to cause a smash that must have closed the road for hours and delayed tens of thousands, remember?
heebeegeetee said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm not sure that I am seeing those posters as having empathy for the guilty man quite as you allude. I'm reading most of their remarks as warnings that no one is exempt from outbursts of blind rage it is just that it takes different triggers and situations for it to manifest. I'd say that those who have experienced their own blind rage events, which I think shows extreme candidness to actually admit to in a thread such as this, are possibly safer than those who fervently believe blind rage could never happen to them. Denial is always dangerous whereas with acknowledgement can come understanding, coping and management.
I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
You're going to have to remind me again what it was that was so terrible about the woman's driving that made him behave like that. I understood that it was because she held him up.I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
I also understand she gave him the finger. Do I get the finger very often? No, I like to think that my driving isn't so bad that I get that very often.
Disregard the crash for a moment, and just think about how he undertook that car then turned hard right across it's bows, in pursuit of the woman. If he caught the woman what was he going to do, precisely? Drag her out of the car and beat her to a pulp in front of her children?
Those who are saying that this type of response to being held up is "understandable"... well, there aren't the words.
If they get so angry at being held up maybe they should think about the hold-ups they cause themselves or may cause. After all this guy who was so apoplectic about being held up, he went on to cause a smash that must have closed the road for hours and delayed tens of thousands, remember?
Coolbanana said:
Or am I being overly harsh?
i think you may be directing this at me and others.. Do i look to portray an internet image, no not really.. can i understand blind rage, yes and i am happy for you that it not something you have suffered from, for me it correlates directly with times when i was suffering with depression and stressed; It happened, some of my actions are regrettable (no real damage other than to people's perception of me) and i'm not proud of it.. am I balding and getting tubby, yes and increasingly so
Actually the behaviour (of young men in particular) can be attributed to an under developed frontal lobe (it develops later in men than it does in women) and explains (but does not excuse) some of the irrational behaviours as there is an inability to control emotions; this is why many grow out of it, as i hope i have done.
The driving standards and behaviour of this person that caused this accident can not be defended.
heebeegeetee said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm not sure that I am seeing those posters as having empathy for the guilty man quite as you allude. I'm reading most of their remarks as warnings that no one is exempt from outbursts of blind rage it is just that it takes different triggers and situations for it to manifest. I'd say that those who have experienced their own blind rage events, which I think shows extreme candidness to actually admit to in a thread such as this, are possibly safer than those who fervently believe blind rage could never happen to them. Denial is always dangerous whereas with acknowledgement can come understanding, coping and management.
I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
You're going to have to remind me again what it was that was so terrible about the woman's driving that made him behave like that. I understood that it was because she held him up.I get the impression that the people who have admitted to having blind rages have clearly understood that it is not good and have found ways and means to recognise key situations and manage them before they become anything potentially dangerous. It is very interesting to read the posts where people empathise with the guilty man and I have not seen anyone excuse his behaviour or suggest lesser punishment, just simply recognise that such rage and its consequences are not beyond any living human. I do suspect that a man who knows himself well enough to know what has the ability to trigger such rage and recognises this and learns to manage it is safer on the roads than a man who believes he is immune from millions of years of genetic evolution.
I also understand she gave him the finger. Do I get the finger very often? No, I like to think that my driving isn't so bad that I get that very often.
Disregard the crash for a moment, and just think about how he undertook that car then turned hard right across it's bows, in pursuit of the woman. If he caught the woman what was he going to do, precisely? Drag her out of the car and beat her to a pulp in front of her children?
Those who are saying that this type of response to being held up is "understandable"... well, there aren't the words.
If they get so angry at being held up maybe they should think about the hold-ups they cause themselves or may cause. After all this guy who was so apoplectic about being held up, he went on to cause a smash that must have closed the road for hours and delayed tens of thousands, remember?
To a degree we as intelligent beings can control our emotions, but we are not robots & it's a complex array of factors that cause us to behave in certain ways..... Take experienced airline pilots with 10,000+ hours on type who encounter a seemingly simple problem, yet end up flying their aircraft into the ground/running out of fuel/ missing vital safety alerts etc. It's one area I take particular interest in as an aviation professional, the weak link in the safety chain is usually human factors...
Anyway, the point of the post is to say that understanding the factors behind the JLR drivers actions is important to learn lessons from, for all of us... No one is excusing his actions.
I see this kind of crap on the road daily, and this is one of the worst possible consequences. I am shocked that this doesn't happen more often, but thankful that luck seems to prevail in most cases. So sad for the girls who are victim, and I hope that this road bully gets a solid punishment albeit no comparison to those injured.
tenfour said:
It is a sad story and quite a chilling one.
It hammers home just how easy it is to cross the line. I am quite certain that each and every one of us has at some point in our lives fallen victim to the red mist. It happens, especially when we're young and have a point to prove. I know I've been there many a time, albeit thankfully where the net result is just an exchange of coffee beans and both parties go their separate ways. I always feel like an utter pleb for taking the bait thereafter, regardless of who was at fault.
Ironically it takes courage to brush off these incidents and let the offending party have his accident somewhere else. Clearly on this occasion our JLR guy let his ego get the better of him, with tragic consequences.
And on that note I think this thread has gotten the better of itself by two opposing and extreme points of view. I'm willing to bet the JLR guy woke up the morning of the accident the same way as the rest of us. I'm willing to bet he had friends and family who loved and respected him. To all intents and purposes, he was probably just a normal guy, with quite a cool job by the sounds of it. And that's what makes this case all the more frightening: he's not a deranged child rapist; he's not an armed robber and he's not a big time drug dealer. Just a normal guy doing normal things until about five minutes before his loss of judgement changed his and the lives of several other people for ever.
To that end I don't think it's easy to sympathize with him, but I think a lot of us will certainly be able to empathize. And so it's not a case that he should be burned to the stake, but rather his actions should serve as a warning to us all. That is what we all need to take away from this story. He will serve his time and thereafter he will need to somehow come to terms with the fact that there is a family out there who have been permanently affected by his actions: two girls will grow up disabled with all that entails. Likewise, his life will never be the same again: his friends and family will have deserted him and he'll never hold down a respectable job again. His sentence is a life sentence; all the more so because he was, prior to the accident, clearly a normal guy capable of rational thought and remorse (even if it's not obvious from the reporting).
As a side note, the Mazda driver cannot reasonably be implicated in this: she will most likely never forget the events of that day and hence that is it for her. I have no doubt that she'll never react to anyone's road rage again. Therefore, to suggest that she is somehow accountable is just nonsense. I dare say she misjudged an opening prior to the 'chase' and was therefore put in a position where she clearly felt threatened enough to try and remove herself from danger.
Subsequently, our thoughts should be with the girls and her family, and the JLR driver, if only so that we remember just how easily our lives can turn upside down in a flash.
Frankly, I am utterly terrified by what happened here and I know that when I next jump in the car, I'll think twice before getting upset at someone else's driving standards.
And yes, like them or loathe them, there is merit in driving a big car.
Very well put. It hammers home just how easy it is to cross the line. I am quite certain that each and every one of us has at some point in our lives fallen victim to the red mist. It happens, especially when we're young and have a point to prove. I know I've been there many a time, albeit thankfully where the net result is just an exchange of coffee beans and both parties go their separate ways. I always feel like an utter pleb for taking the bait thereafter, regardless of who was at fault.
Ironically it takes courage to brush off these incidents and let the offending party have his accident somewhere else. Clearly on this occasion our JLR guy let his ego get the better of him, with tragic consequences.
And on that note I think this thread has gotten the better of itself by two opposing and extreme points of view. I'm willing to bet the JLR guy woke up the morning of the accident the same way as the rest of us. I'm willing to bet he had friends and family who loved and respected him. To all intents and purposes, he was probably just a normal guy, with quite a cool job by the sounds of it. And that's what makes this case all the more frightening: he's not a deranged child rapist; he's not an armed robber and he's not a big time drug dealer. Just a normal guy doing normal things until about five minutes before his loss of judgement changed his and the lives of several other people for ever.
To that end I don't think it's easy to sympathize with him, but I think a lot of us will certainly be able to empathize. And so it's not a case that he should be burned to the stake, but rather his actions should serve as a warning to us all. That is what we all need to take away from this story. He will serve his time and thereafter he will need to somehow come to terms with the fact that there is a family out there who have been permanently affected by his actions: two girls will grow up disabled with all that entails. Likewise, his life will never be the same again: his friends and family will have deserted him and he'll never hold down a respectable job again. His sentence is a life sentence; all the more so because he was, prior to the accident, clearly a normal guy capable of rational thought and remorse (even if it's not obvious from the reporting).
As a side note, the Mazda driver cannot reasonably be implicated in this: she will most likely never forget the events of that day and hence that is it for her. I have no doubt that she'll never react to anyone's road rage again. Therefore, to suggest that she is somehow accountable is just nonsense. I dare say she misjudged an opening prior to the 'chase' and was therefore put in a position where she clearly felt threatened enough to try and remove herself from danger.
Subsequently, our thoughts should be with the girls and her family, and the JLR driver, if only so that we remember just how easily our lives can turn upside down in a flash.
Frankly, I am utterly terrified by what happened here and I know that when I next jump in the car, I'll think twice before getting upset at someone else's driving standards.
And yes, like them or loathe them, there is merit in driving a big car.
I would only disagree with the bit I have bolded. You can't be certain his friends and family will desert him. Even less so that he will never obtain respectable employment. You've been on PH long enough to have possibly come across 10PenceShort's thread about his involvement in a horrific collision with a biker resulting, I suggest, in even worse life changing injuries to the latter than the two unfortunate children in the current case. His prison diary blog was compelling reading. I think you will find he was profoundly changed by the experience and is not a drain on society since his release.
Whether Nay is capable of rehabilitation I can't say but writing someone off, as many on here have done, seems to me both prejudicial and premature. And before the Daily Fail acolytes wade in accusing me of be a festering, hand wringing leftie, I am not condoning what he did in any way shape or form.
heebeegeetee said:
You're going to have to remind me again what it was that was so terrible about the woman's driving that made him behave like that. I understood that it was because she held him up.
I also understand she gave him the finger. Do I get the finger very often? No, I like to think that my driving isn't so bad that I get that very often.
Disregard the crash for a moment, and just think about how he undertook that car then turned hard right across it's bows, in pursuit of the woman. If he caught the woman what was he going to do, precisely? Drag her out of the car and beat her to a pulp in front of her children?
Those who are saying that this type of response to being held up is "understandable"... well, there aren't the words.
If they get so angry at being held up maybe they should think about the hold-ups they cause themselves or may cause. After all this guy who was so apoplectic about being held up, he went on to cause a smash that must have closed the road for hours and delayed tens of thousands, remember?
Utterly agree, I cannot understand why people are trying to equate/mitigate/understand the mans actions, his actions must be seen in the light of situation he found himself in, which was nothing. I also understand she gave him the finger. Do I get the finger very often? No, I like to think that my driving isn't so bad that I get that very often.
Disregard the crash for a moment, and just think about how he undertook that car then turned hard right across it's bows, in pursuit of the woman. If he caught the woman what was he going to do, precisely? Drag her out of the car and beat her to a pulp in front of her children?
Those who are saying that this type of response to being held up is "understandable"... well, there aren't the words.
If they get so angry at being held up maybe they should think about the hold-ups they cause themselves or may cause. After all this guy who was so apoplectic about being held up, he went on to cause a smash that must have closed the road for hours and delayed tens of thousands, remember?
He wasn't chasing her down in a blind rage because she'd stolen his children.
He showed a wanton disregard for everyone's safety whilst chasing down a woman for what? Giving him the finger? The mans a disgrace.
As for all the red mist boys on this thread, I suggest you all get professional help as it's not normal behaviour lads.
heebeegeetee said:
F1GTRUeno said:
I'm not arguing that he didn't have sufficient time to calm down, or should've taken a different course of action but simply that people lose their minds over the smallest of things, it's therefore understandable that he did what he did.
Your take on this is absolutely moronic. Understandable? Wtf are you trying to kid?So a woman gave him the finger (allegedly?). Bless. If that was it, then nothing happened, nothing at all to warrant anything more than a curse under the breath.
I'm not the LR driver, nor are you. You don't know him, you don't know his mindset, what makes him tick and how easy or hard it is to piss him off (and the various contributing factors that led to him being that type of person).
The ones in this thread who can't comprehend that everybody is different and also that we are not blessed with foresight, only hindsight and therefore cannot second guess how we're going to react to an unforeseen event are moronic. Our brain is one of the most complex and interesting bits of engineering ever conceived (however we made it here) and every brain is different. We all have our levels of tolerance for absolutely every situation and no two people are the same.
It does seem that if you don't simply say 'kill the
' or 'let him fking rot in prison' or whatever then you're derided as an idiot when in reality you've got knowledge that a mans actions are his alone and society is just a form of control to keep the order and hope that we live by morals. The ones that are getting so wound up about people saying it's understandable are showing the exact same traits as the LR driver. I wouldn't dare make a simple mistake driving in front of one of you lot lest you take my number plate down, find out my details and send me a letter or email telling me how I should have driven according to you and your rules. You're being blinded in your outrage that it seems someone is defending the guy to realise that nobody is and everyone in this thread has agreed the guy is a danger and needs to be sentenced properly. This guy is a d
head. I can't begin to wonder why he's a dhead but he is one. He should've handled it a whole lot better than he did but once that anger takes over at breaking point your brain doesn't actually think. It just acts. It's a fatal flaw in our psyche and one we'll never get rid of.Edited by F1GTRUeno on Sunday 5th June 02:36
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