End of the road for the classic car boom?
Discussion
SEE YA said:
Many people for some reason, look at top end of the market as a guide.Which is wrong,if cars do not sell and price starts dropping is must be a crash in the market.
Most of us deal, in the middle market car wise.
If you wait, like many people have the car you wanted is now put of your reach price wise.
The great thing about classic cars there is one for everybody's taste and pocket.Just find one that puts a smile on your face and enjoy the car for what it is.
Totally agree. The hope people have that they can own a Porsche, Ferrari or whatever and it won't cost them anything is completely ridiculous.Most of us deal, in the middle market car wise.
If you wait, like many people have the car you wanted is now put of your reach price wise.
The great thing about classic cars there is one for everybody's taste and pocket.Just find one that puts a smile on your face and enjoy the car for what it is.
Apart from a tiny number of scarce cars which wealthy collectors/speculators chase after the rest of it is all hot air.
Cars cost money to own/run. Decide what you want to drive/can afford to own, and enjoy!
This is a very timely thread. I was only thinking last weekend how sad it was that I will probably never be able to afford a Ferrari or a desirable Porsche 911. I remember going to a charity day in 2004 when you could pay for a ride in a Ferrari. At that time a guy was taking people out in a 308. Not many people bothered, because at the time it was worth less than £20K and not special enough. Now that car would be worth £80+ upwards.
I've hated how so many desirable less exotic cars have gone out of reach. I always fancied a Merc 190E Cosworth. They were £5-£6K for years. Just when I come into a bit of money, they treble in value and then some! Its ridiculous because you can actually buy a much faster and more capable C55AMG for less than half what a mind 190E 2.6 Cosworth will cost you. Hopefully rectification of prices will arrive soon!
I've hated how so many desirable less exotic cars have gone out of reach. I always fancied a Merc 190E Cosworth. They were £5-£6K for years. Just when I come into a bit of money, they treble in value and then some! Its ridiculous because you can actually buy a much faster and more capable C55AMG for less than half what a mind 190E 2.6 Cosworth will cost you. Hopefully rectification of prices will arrive soon!
greenarrow said:
I've hated how so many desirable less exotic cars have gone out of reach. I always fancied a Merc 190E Cosworth. They were £5-£6K for years. Just when I come into a bit of money, they treble in value and then some! Its ridiculous because you can actually buy a much faster and more capable C55AMG for less than half what a mind 190E 2.6 Cosworth will cost you. Hopefully rectification of prices will arrive soon!
You'll still get a 2.3 or 2.5 ( the 2.6 engines aren't the Cosworth type headed cars and are well in your 6k budget ) for not much more than your budget if you really wanted one - you'll have to do some jobs on any 25-30 year old car these days if you use it. They are very well put together ( with the exception of rust ) and pretty well supported for sparesUnless you're after something minty and very low mileage you don't need to pay 18k. You're less likely to lose money on an 8k car than an 18k car if the oft-mentioned "bubble" bursts
Either that or buy the more modern C32/C55 as you say, much faster but different sort of experience
A lot of it is a matter of timing and playing a long game. In 1990 I would have loved to have a new Porsche 944 Turbo or R129 500SL, but to buy the pair together would have cost me £120K, which was quite literally four times the market value of the four bedroom house in the Midlands I was paying for.
So instead I played with old Mark II Escorts and a Manta GT/E - at one point I was paying about £700-£800 quid for a Mark II. Did them up, had loads of fun in those. Had a mate with a 3.0S Capri that cost him about a grand, and so on. Others had old Mark I Golfs that were similarly dirt cheap.
Scroll forward to the modern day. I don't have the spare cash today to buy the Mark II Escorts or a minty fresh 3.0S Capri, but I was easily able to afford the 944T and the 500SL over the last few years, because at the time they were being practically given away.
So, in terms of cars enjoyed and ticked off the list I've been able to have ones I wanted by picking the moments. The swings and roundabouts of fashion and market values mean there's a chance to have just about anything over the course of a lifetime if you keep your eye open for the right moment. What you can't do, unelss you're loaded, is have it at the same time everyone else wants it.
So instead I played with old Mark II Escorts and a Manta GT/E - at one point I was paying about £700-£800 quid for a Mark II. Did them up, had loads of fun in those. Had a mate with a 3.0S Capri that cost him about a grand, and so on. Others had old Mark I Golfs that were similarly dirt cheap.
Scroll forward to the modern day. I don't have the spare cash today to buy the Mark II Escorts or a minty fresh 3.0S Capri, but I was easily able to afford the 944T and the 500SL over the last few years, because at the time they were being practically given away.
So, in terms of cars enjoyed and ticked off the list I've been able to have ones I wanted by picking the moments. The swings and roundabouts of fashion and market values mean there's a chance to have just about anything over the course of a lifetime if you keep your eye open for the right moment. What you can't do, unelss you're loaded, is have it at the same time everyone else wants it.
Lowtimer said:
Scroll forward to the modern day. I don't have the spare cash today to buy the Mark II Escorts or a minty fresh 3.0S Capri, but I was easily able to afford the 944T and the 500SL over the last few years, because at the time they were being practically given away.
Has a Capri 3.0S ever been more expensive than a comparable condition 944 turbo ? I got interested in 944 turbos around 10 years ago when it looked like I could buy one for £4k, looked at the cheap ones and they were all total sheds.blade7 said:
Has a Capri 3.0S ever been more expensive than a comparable condition 944 turbo ? I got interested in 944 turbos around 10 years ago when it looked like I could buy one for £4k, looked at the cheap ones and they were all total sheds.
At that price I'm not surprised. £4K has always been too cheap to buy a good 944 Turbo. A properly good cars wes about £8K around 2010 and have gone up since then, but not the way Capris have. Current Capri prices:
Here's a perfectly ordinary 3.0S for sale at £18,995.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C732443
I think there have been a couple of very low milers at auction in the £30s recently with no particular celebrity history, and these two at the £55K mark:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-35...
And while not quite the same thing this lovely mark 1 3000 went at just over £50K recently:
http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...
Edited by Lowtimer on Saturday 28th May 16:19
Lowtimer said:
blade7 said:
Has a Capri 3.0S ever been more expensive than a comparable condition 944 turbo ? I got interested in 944 turbos around 10 years ago when it looked like I could buy one for £4k, looked at the cheap ones and they were all total sheds.
There have been a couple in the mid £30s recentlyyes, but
1: unlike the acution Capris it hasn't sold, and has been for sale for quite a while
2: they are universally noted to be flying a massive kite with it in an attempt to completely re-set the market. No-one's going to pay that for it, not this year anyway. And probably not for another 10 years.
If theirs is worth £45K then mine's worth £30K, and mine's not worth £30K.
There was much discussion of the pricing of that car here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features-he...
1: unlike the acution Capris it hasn't sold, and has been for sale for quite a while
2: they are universally noted to be flying a massive kite with it in an attempt to completely re-set the market. No-one's going to pay that for it, not this year anyway. And probably not for another 10 years.
If theirs is worth £45K then mine's worth £30K, and mine's not worth £30K.
There was much discussion of the pricing of that car here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features-he...
Couple of 997 turbos under £40k now
996 gt3s back under £60k
M3 csls are available and not being snapped up
Z3m coupes not selling
I think things may come down just as quickly as they went up - remember in 2008/2009 cars halved in value.
When the music stops a guy sat in an automatic 360 in blue he just paid £85k for will wince
I will probably be wrong but i get the feeling classic cars are teetering on the edge at present and a few big investors have been offloading cars in recent months.
Having reconsidered my views i cant see many cars booming now. How much more has a 360 got to go or a relatively common 996 turbo? Surely they cant continue
996 gt3s back under £60k
M3 csls are available and not being snapped up
Z3m coupes not selling
I think things may come down just as quickly as they went up - remember in 2008/2009 cars halved in value.
When the music stops a guy sat in an automatic 360 in blue he just paid £85k for will wince
I will probably be wrong but i get the feeling classic cars are teetering on the edge at present and a few big investors have been offloading cars in recent months.
Having reconsidered my views i cant see many cars booming now. How much more has a 360 got to go or a relatively common 996 turbo? Surely they cant continue
TrackerMan. said:
This car would have been under £8k a couple of years ago...
http://www.fast-classics.com/cars/vw-corrado-vr6-2...
http://www.fast-classics.com/cars/vw-corrado-vr6-2...
Several other German cars spring to mind; two of which I have turned a profit on: the M3 CSL and the Porsche GT3. Prices for these cars in particular have just gone silly.
And as great though the CSL is, its not £80k great, or roughly the price of a Gen II 997 GT3 (which is itself too expensive IMO).
blade7 said:
Other than the 2 Capri's with TV history and the rare very low mileage or special MK1's I still don't see many 3.0S's making more than minty 944 turbos. What do you think your turbo is worth...
I am getting it valued shortly to update the insurance, but of course that is almost always a higher number than what you could actually sell it for in a reasonable time on the open market. Looking at standard or standard-ish Turbos - i.e. not racers, things with monster 450 hp engines or Silver Rose cars, I don;t know of any 944 Turbo offhand that has changed hands in the last few years for more than mid-late teens, and the average cars for sale as you know are generally pretty shot.That said maybe I need to update my ideas of valuation a bit. If you put this car --
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
-- back on to the factory wheels it would be almost identical to mine in terms of spec and mileage and money spent on restoration and refurb, and they are asking £24K for it. But to be honest I can't really see anyone buying it for that, it's just a bit of opportunistic pricing hoping someone will come by with a lot of money.
I bet they paid about £12k for it.
This one is on at £29K but is v low mileage. Looks lovely but to me at that price it looks to me like someone emboldened by the Autofarm attempt to reset the trading range.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
I see it claims to have heated seats! Ever seen an 944 coupe with heated seats? I don't think I have. Presumably they came out of a dead cabrio?
When we see some more auction cars go through over the summer we will have a better idea, that's a better guide than anyone's asking price.
Edited by Lowtimer on Saturday 28th May 20:28
Ten years ago you could take your pick of Elan Sprints for £6K, I bought and sold loads, F328, gave 18K for mine, eventually got rid at 22K.
The VERY VERY best examples with ultra low mileage will continue to rise....the less than perfect examples that have been dragged up by the former and/or have owners with rose tinted specticles will drop IMO.
Other reason the market is slowing is the cars have become beyond the reach of the vast majority of enthusiasts.
jonah35 said:
I was just coming on here to type the same thing.
Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
I'm intrigued as to why people were laughing at a 328? Was he dressed as a clown? That's a beautiful car. No idea. Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
Mike
Lowtimer said:
blade7 said:
Other than the 2 Capri's with TV history and the rare very low mileage or special MK1's I still don't see many 3.0S's making more than minty 944 turbos. What do you think your turbo is worth...
I am getting it valued shortly to update the insurance, but of course that is almost always a higher number than what you could actually sell it for in a reasonable time on the open market. Looking at standard or standard-ish Turbos - i.e. not racers, things with monster 450 hp engines or Silver Rose cars, I don;t know of any 944 Turbo offhand that has changed hands in the last few years for more than mid-late teens, and the average cars for sale as you know are generally pretty shot.That said maybe I need to update my ideas of valuation a bit. If you put this car --
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
-- back on to the factory wheels it would be almost identical to mine in terms of spec and mileage and money spent on restoration and refurb, and they are asking £24K for it. But to be honest I can't really see anyone buying it for that, it's just a bit of opportunistic pricing hoping someone will come by with a lot of money.
I bet they paid about £12k for it.
mikees said:
jonah35 said:
I was just coming on here to type the same thing.
Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
I'm intrigued as to why people were laughing at a 328? Was he dressed as a clown? That's a beautiful car. No idea. Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
Mike
jonah35 said:
I was just coming on here to type the same thing.
Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
I think the market has come to realise that some of these cars are becoming hard to justify, even for speculators. Sure, it's understandable that an M3 CSL could be worth £50k to someone, but double again? Even on an unstoppable rise, the best part of £100k is a lot to invest in a modified E46 BMW, which wasn't even a homologation special (and don't get me wrong - I rated mine as one of the best cars I've ever driven).Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
Same with GT Porsches; the prices for the RS cars in particular have just gone daft. And fabulous as they are, I don't see the value in a £150-200k GT3 over cooking a Carrera S for £25k. Much sharper to drive; more raw (instert >journalistic w
k-adjective here<) etc, but £150k better? 
£75k for a 996 GT3 is also too much, IMO, but then that makes the last 997 cars look even more preposterous!As you've said, I'd be very worried right now if I was left holding the baby, because I think the music's about to stop.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff