End of the road for the classic car boom?
Discussion
Yep,
Most pistonheads-esque cars I had on my radar 18-24 months ago have gone up by 50% in today's money but just not selling. 6-12 months ago they were around 30% more expensive and selling almost immediately. I think the market is already starting to crash.
Interestingly, I find a lot of these cars are being sold by the trade. I suspect they were bought by independent traders who then hugely inflated the prices and refusing to budge. Cars which sold still had their original price tag on regardless on the sale price which inflated matters more - Private sellers thought they could get more so traders added more margin on which turned into a vicious circle. Quite simply, people taking the piss. They are now being left with the stock but still refusing to budge - when they do (and they will) the market will pop. It's just not sustainable in the lower end of the market. I'm looking at selling my MK1 Golf, but the cars I could get for the same money are, quite frankly garbage compared to what the same budget could have got a couple of years back.
Example - Audi TT Quattro Sport - I saw for sale at £7,000. Called up and he sold it that day for £5,200 (gutted). Back up for sale untouched at a dealer a few days later at £9,000 and the dealer refused to budge on price. The QS is not even that Pistonheads, which proves my point even more.
Most pistonheads-esque cars I had on my radar 18-24 months ago have gone up by 50% in today's money but just not selling. 6-12 months ago they were around 30% more expensive and selling almost immediately. I think the market is already starting to crash.
Interestingly, I find a lot of these cars are being sold by the trade. I suspect they were bought by independent traders who then hugely inflated the prices and refusing to budge. Cars which sold still had their original price tag on regardless on the sale price which inflated matters more - Private sellers thought they could get more so traders added more margin on which turned into a vicious circle. Quite simply, people taking the piss. They are now being left with the stock but still refusing to budge - when they do (and they will) the market will pop. It's just not sustainable in the lower end of the market. I'm looking at selling my MK1 Golf, but the cars I could get for the same money are, quite frankly garbage compared to what the same budget could have got a couple of years back.
Example - Audi TT Quattro Sport - I saw for sale at £7,000. Called up and he sold it that day for £5,200 (gutted). Back up for sale untouched at a dealer a few days later at £9,000 and the dealer refused to budge on price. The QS is not even that Pistonheads, which proves my point even more.
Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Friday 27th May 14:34
Good, prices are getting rather ahead of themselves. 3 years ago there was a lot of interesting stuff you could find for next to nothing.
Alfa GTV V6's
e39 M5's
etc
Also supercar prices. Remember when you could probably find an F355 for £35/40k? I thought I might be able to get one one day!
Alfa GTV V6's
e39 M5's
etc
Also supercar prices. Remember when you could probably find an F355 for £35/40k? I thought I might be able to get one one day!
Let's hope it bursts soon.
Ten years ago I bought a F328 with fewer than 2000 miles on the clock for £37,000.
I ran it for a couple of years and was more than happy to sell it for £33,000.
The same car today would set you back at least £150,000.
The car hasn't suddenly become £120,000 nicer to drive, or £120,000 nicer to look at.
The only reason for the price difference is because the market is infested with speculators, and the sooner they bugger off the better.
Unless you are an enthusiast who has happily ridden the crest of the wave, then there is nothing really positive about the current bubble. Even then, if I happened to be sitting on an old Ferrari which had quadrupled in value, then I would be seriously considering selling it and cashing in my chips. And that is rather sad, because it brings unwanted financial considerations into what is otherwise a great hobby.
Ten years ago I bought a F328 with fewer than 2000 miles on the clock for £37,000.
I ran it for a couple of years and was more than happy to sell it for £33,000.
The same car today would set you back at least £150,000.
The car hasn't suddenly become £120,000 nicer to drive, or £120,000 nicer to look at.
The only reason for the price difference is because the market is infested with speculators, and the sooner they bugger off the better.
Unless you are an enthusiast who has happily ridden the crest of the wave, then there is nothing really positive about the current bubble. Even then, if I happened to be sitting on an old Ferrari which had quadrupled in value, then I would be seriously considering selling it and cashing in my chips. And that is rather sad, because it brings unwanted financial considerations into what is otherwise a great hobby.
Yep this ^^^^^
When what a car is worth is more important then how it drives, something has gone wrong. You can almost forgive it at the top end of the market as the majority of that is investors with little interest in cars anyway but down at what used to be the bottom end? Which enthusiast who isn't a millionaire hasn't dreamt of owning a childhood classic one day, impossible dream for most at the moment with current prices.
When what a car is worth is more important then how it drives, something has gone wrong. You can almost forgive it at the top end of the market as the majority of that is investors with little interest in cars anyway but down at what used to be the bottom end? Which enthusiast who isn't a millionaire hasn't dreamt of owning a childhood classic one day, impossible dream for most at the moment with current prices.
Childhood classics are still affordable - it just depends what you want. If you're talking childhood supercar they are as affordable to us now as they always were (with a few exceptions that are either more or less affordable).
If you're talking the childhood classics our parents drove they are pretty much still as affordable to us as they were to them (again with a few notable exceptions).
For example an original Mini is affordable as is an Austin Allegro. A 328 Ferrari isn't but then it wasn't when it was new either.
Some notable exceptions are Mk1 and 2 escorts - they seem to be pretty expensive these days.
Merc r129s - cheap as chips at present but they were seriously expensive new.
Look at all the Merc W123/124/190s about - very affordable.
Anything 60s and older the price does tend to go up a lot but much of that is supply and demand. As people have more disposable cash they tend to look for ways to spend it on what they fancy and in many cases its an old car they or their parents had. People in their 50s grew up in the 60s and are now often pretty comfortable so if they are interested in cars or have a hankering for something that reminds them of their parents or childhood they often look to a car from that era. Given there are now a greater number of people of that age (percentage wise) than at any other time its hardly surprising those cars cost more.
If you're talking the childhood classics our parents drove they are pretty much still as affordable to us as they were to them (again with a few notable exceptions).
For example an original Mini is affordable as is an Austin Allegro. A 328 Ferrari isn't but then it wasn't when it was new either.
Some notable exceptions are Mk1 and 2 escorts - they seem to be pretty expensive these days.
Merc r129s - cheap as chips at present but they were seriously expensive new.
Look at all the Merc W123/124/190s about - very affordable.
Anything 60s and older the price does tend to go up a lot but much of that is supply and demand. As people have more disposable cash they tend to look for ways to spend it on what they fancy and in many cases its an old car they or their parents had. People in their 50s grew up in the 60s and are now often pretty comfortable so if they are interested in cars or have a hankering for something that reminds them of their parents or childhood they often look to a car from that era. Given there are now a greater number of people of that age (percentage wise) than at any other time its hardly surprising those cars cost more.
moebiusuk said:
I hope so. I want to buy an S2000 but not at current prices. Great car but not worth the money they're currently on sale for.
I don't think the prices of these are riding any kind of temporary spike sadly (apart from perhaps the seasonal one for a 2-seat roadster). With no replacement model, and little else out there offering the same kind of experience, I can't see any scenario where the prices of these come back down to the crazy-cheap levels they were at a couple of years ago.
As much as I hate the term, I think the prices of these really are only going one way.
Pat H said:
Ten years ago I bought a F328 with fewer than 2000 miles on the clock for £37,000.
I ran it for a couple of years and was more than happy to sell it for £33,000.
The same car today would set you back at least £150,000.
The car hasn't suddenly become £120,000 nicer to drive, or £120,000 nicer to look at.
Similarly, I had a chance to buy a 328GTS with about 25k miles on it for about £25k around the same time that you bought yours. I didn't go ahead as I wouldn't have had anywhere to keep it at the time, though I could have probably arranged something with a bit of effort. I'm looking at prices now and kicking myself.I ran it for a couple of years and was more than happy to sell it for £33,000.
The same car today would set you back at least £150,000.
The car hasn't suddenly become £120,000 nicer to drive, or £120,000 nicer to look at.
Pat H said:
The only reason for the price difference is because the market is infested with speculators, and the sooner they bugger off the better.
Couldn't agree more.lostkiwi said:
Childhood classics are still affordable - it just depends what you want. If you're talking childhood supercar they are as affordable to us now as they always were (with a few exceptions that are either more or less affordable).
not really affordable now http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/f...
This car would have been under £8k a couple of years ago...
http://www.fast-classics.com/cars/vw-corrado-vr6-2...
http://www.fast-classics.com/cars/vw-corrado-vr6-2...
I was just coming on here to type the same thing.
Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
Ive noticed recently z3 m coupes are simply not selling at all, m3 csls too.
I think as interest rates fell to nothing its obvious that asset prices took off but rates havent fallen further and cars have reached their zenith.
Some cheaper cars eg mk- focus rs are climbing but the e30 m3s of this world appear to have stalled.
They could perhaps now fall back as people wont want to be investing in them if theyre not appreciating.
Incidentally i was in a car and a chap in an old ferrari 328 pulled up at the traffic lights and people were bursting out laughing at how ridiculous and stupid this poor bloke looked. I was the only person to admire the car. £150k to be laughed at? No thanks.
Soon, when the music stops someone will be left holding the hot potato of a £90k 13 year old e46 bmw that is slower than a modern diesel.
I'm the man who failed - just - to get the £1200 together to buy a mint Elan Sprint yonks ago. Now worth north of £40k and still an itch I want to scratch . So a crash in prices would see me breaking out the Bolly to celebrate.
But the real tragedy is great cars of the past which have never been used - the 6000mile 1988 F40 - what is the point? Probably 3-5k per annum expense so as not to drive it . Utterly beyond me - but there again I have no interest in money for its own sake but lots in cars ...
But the real tragedy is great cars of the past which have never been used - the 6000mile 1988 F40 - what is the point? Probably 3-5k per annum expense so as not to drive it . Utterly beyond me - but there again I have no interest in money for its own sake but lots in cars ...
Prices are way too high, I agree...however, they will remain way too high while
(a) cheap money is abundant - which does not seem to be changing
(b) there are few alternative stores of value - the world is not making any more vintage Ferraris
(c) the world keeps producing millionaires - which it still seems to be doing at quite a rate
While I agree with the sentiment and have my own regrets, sadly, I don't see classic cars getting much cheaper any time soon.
(a) cheap money is abundant - which does not seem to be changing
(b) there are few alternative stores of value - the world is not making any more vintage Ferraris
(c) the world keeps producing millionaires - which it still seems to be doing at quite a rate
While I agree with the sentiment and have my own regrets, sadly, I don't see classic cars getting much cheaper any time soon.
Impasse said:
One of the plus sides to the current boom is that poor condition basket cases are now financially viable to restore which should mean fewer classics heading for the crusher.
a very good point and one that should soothe the pain of true enthusiasts. Good things come to those who wait.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff