My view of the world has been shaken
Discussion
Ex Boy Racer said:
Ok. I'm a car nut, like most of us on here.
Love cars and have been lucky enough to own some pretty nice motors.
Currently have an AM Vantage V12, manual as you would expect of a PH-er. Great car.
So... what has shaken my world?
Drove my OH's new Mazda MX5 today and - dare I say it - it was just as much fun as my Aston. And the Ferrari that I had. Or R8... You see where I'm going on this.
Ok. Missed the performance. Really missed the noise. And certainly I didn't go very fast. But it was just a hoot. Unpretentious, low speed, out and out fun. It felt almost like things were years ago when I was young; didn't expect much but loved everything.
Makes you think, doesn't it?
Still keeping the Aston though.
I had a couple of long drives on the Serre de Tramuntan mountain roads in Mallorca at the weekend in a hired 318d. It was tremendous fun. It was slower than the Aston, the noise was not particularly pleasant, where the Aston would have been glorious, but it was rwd with good steering and perfectly adequate brakes and I enjoyed driving it.Love cars and have been lucky enough to own some pretty nice motors.
Currently have an AM Vantage V12, manual as you would expect of a PH-er. Great car.
So... what has shaken my world?
Drove my OH's new Mazda MX5 today and - dare I say it - it was just as much fun as my Aston. And the Ferrari that I had. Or R8... You see where I'm going on this.
Ok. Missed the performance. Really missed the noise. And certainly I didn't go very fast. But it was just a hoot. Unpretentious, low speed, out and out fun. It felt almost like things were years ago when I was young; didn't expect much but loved everything.
Makes you think, doesn't it?
Still keeping the Aston though.
Not as extreme, but that's why I got rid of my Evo for a Giulietta QV. The Evo is, quantifiably, better in every way (bar, bizarrely, reliability and build quality) but I never felt I was enjoying it on public roads. Now, I feel I'm actually responsible for getting the Alfa to flow down twisty tarmac instead of just hanging on and hoping I don't get arrested!
V8RX7 said:
s m said:
Vitorio said:
Indeed, lightness is where its at for fun.
One of the things on my automotive todo list is to get a small/light car (pug 106?) with a somewhat decent engine, fettle it a tiny bit, strip out unneeded weight and have fun whilst not spending mad money or getting close to license losing territory. For me the goal is 100hp/ton with good handling in the corners, and 80hp in a 800kg car is much cheaper and easier to get handling well then 140 in a 1400kg car.
106 RallyeOne of the things on my automotive todo list is to get a small/light car (pug 106?) with a somewhat decent engine, fettle it a tiny bit, strip out unneeded weight and have fun whilst not spending mad money or getting close to license losing territory. For me the goal is 100hp/ton with good handling in the corners, and 80hp in a 800kg car is much cheaper and easier to get handling well then 140 in a 1400kg car.
One of the most fun cars i had was a 1989 1.6 MX5. Total poverty spec - wind up window, no aircon. Only luxury was PAS. Had a wail of a time.
Very powerful cars mask poor driving ability. Its not hard to make some 300BHP subaru make fast progress cross country, much more difficult in a relatively slow car.
SirSquidalot said:
Love my MX5 to bits, it isnt fast but it's bloody good fun! Many memories have been made driving it, i doubt i'd get the same feeling in say a new Golf GTI, yes it would destroy the MX5 on any road but that doesnt make it fun.
Maybe on the autobahn yes, but not a proper twisty road. The mx5 should easily be able to keep with the golf on the bends. It's all about the driver
johnwilliams77 said:
Maybe on the autobahn yes, but not a proper twisty road. The mx5 should easily be able to keep with the golf on the bends. It's all about the driver
My old man had an MX5 for about 12 months (don't know the model but a fairly new one with the electric hard top) and it was a great car to drive.
It was a lot more relaxing to drive than my old S1 Elise or S2 Exige and more 'fun'. The Lotus' (Exige especially) made you feel that you had to be driving really hard all the time to have fun.
It was a lot more relaxing to drive than my old S1 Elise or S2 Exige and more 'fun'. The Lotus' (Exige especially) made you feel that you had to be driving really hard all the time to have fun.
V8RX7 said:
I wouldn't be so sure - MX5s have great handling but that isn't the same a high grip - IIRC in the MX5 race series they were lapping slower than the Metro race series.
Around the twisty tracks they hold their own very very well. They are lighter than golfs and pretty sure they can brake later and corner quicker. Obviously grippy tyres helps with this.I love my Z4C but there's no doubt about it, even though it's not exactly super car fast it's still way more than what's required on the road and if you drove it like you'd drive an MX5 you'd be well over 3 figures more often than not. As said I do still enjoy it, as it's quite nice wafting along in something with plenty in reserve, and its a nice place to be, but I could still fancy something like a cheap MR2 Roadster just for s
ts and giggles.
ts and giggles. I have been of this view for a very long time now. The faster cars get on paper, the duller they get in the real world, all the more so as I live in the congested South East.
I've been lucky enough to have owned or driven various exotica but over the last 10-15 years have got bored with powertrains devolving control to electronics and NVH suppression removing the connection with the road. Maybe the sweet spot for balancing modern safety with driver immersion was the late 90s/early 00s.
Every Saturday I play cricket (bear with me here) in a league full of picturesque Surrey villages reached by windy country lanes with odd cambers and dips. The drive back in a setting summer sun tends to be just about empty enough to really extend a hot hatch through the gears but not a full fat supercar. The drive forms as much a part of the memory of the day as the game itself!
I've reached the conclusion that a Lancia Delta Integrale is for me the car which best entertains a driver on these sorts of roads (assuming I need a modicum of practicality which discounts Caterhams and the like). Small, agile, rorty and tactile trumps the congestion, cameras, uneven surfaces and width restrictions of modern roads. Fast enough to be a hoot, but not so fast that ultimately you're left unsatisfied. And the level of feedback at any speed blows away just about anything on sale today.
I've been lucky enough to have owned or driven various exotica but over the last 10-15 years have got bored with powertrains devolving control to electronics and NVH suppression removing the connection with the road. Maybe the sweet spot for balancing modern safety with driver immersion was the late 90s/early 00s.
Every Saturday I play cricket (bear with me here) in a league full of picturesque Surrey villages reached by windy country lanes with odd cambers and dips. The drive back in a setting summer sun tends to be just about empty enough to really extend a hot hatch through the gears but not a full fat supercar. The drive forms as much a part of the memory of the day as the game itself!
I've reached the conclusion that a Lancia Delta Integrale is for me the car which best entertains a driver on these sorts of roads (assuming I need a modicum of practicality which discounts Caterhams and the like). Small, agile, rorty and tactile trumps the congestion, cameras, uneven surfaces and width restrictions of modern roads. Fast enough to be a hoot, but not so fast that ultimately you're left unsatisfied. And the level of feedback at any speed blows away just about anything on sale today.
I actually quite enjoy it when I (not very) occasionally hire some old nail of a diesel van to collect/move whatever parts or household tat is required.
Totally different to a fast 0-60 car and it makes a change to just plod along and plan every corner in advance, including loading up the steering first.
Yet, when I was twenty, I would probably have been sliding it everywhere to prove I could keep up with a GTI.
Totally different to a fast 0-60 car and it makes a change to just plod along and plan every corner in advance, including loading up the steering first.
Yet, when I was twenty, I would probably have been sliding it everywhere to prove I could keep up with a GTI.
Hol said:
I actually quite enjoy it when I (not very) occasionally hire some old nail of a diesel van to collect/move whatever parts or household tat is required.
Totally different to a fast 0-60 car and it makes a change to just plod along and plan every corner in advance, including loading up the steering first.
Yet, when I was twenty, I would probably have been sliding it everywhere to prove I could keep up with a GTI.
I'm far from 20 but I kept up with a Bentley GT on a fast A road in my standard P100 - he was well over 100 on the straights but not so brave on the corners - it's one of the most memorable drives I've ever had.Totally different to a fast 0-60 car and it makes a change to just plod along and plan every corner in advance, including loading up the steering first.
Yet, when I was twenty, I would probably have been sliding it everywhere to prove I could keep up with a GTI.
Harris_I said:
over the last 10-15 years have got bored with powertrains devolving control to electronics and NVH suppression removing the connection with the road. Maybe the sweet spot for balancing modern safety with driver immersion was the late 90s/early 00s.
Hence why my cars are 2001 & 2002, my OH's is a 2000. Not much new stuff really interests me, not in the same way anyway.Whilst my experience of vehicles is not in the same league, the sentiment still rings true for me – even when comparing something like my old Mk5 GTI (remapped), or E46 330i, to the current DS3 the Mrs and I have got on one of those silly-cheap leases.
The DS3 obviously isn’t all that (and nor were the GTI or 330i to be fair), but for something that’s a) cheap, b) diesel and practically runs on fumes, and c) doesn’t even claim to be anything remotely sporty, I find it can be just as much fun to hustle along – even with all of 100bhp (& 187 ft-lb). The thing I find with the majority of British ‘driving’ roads that I’ve experienced (proper B roads) is that, there just isn’t often the opportunity to safely (in my mind at least) exploit much more than something like the DS3 has to offer. Around where I tend to drive at least, it’s rare to come across stretches of good windy B road that aren’t littered with concealed junctions, driveways, pot holes, random ultra narrow sections etc etc. When I was a younger man, the potential danger of these hazards wasn’t as apparent and a faster car may well have appealed more – but I do sometimes wonder with what cost? These days, I aim to take pleasure from placing the car well, perfecting gear changes, feeling the suspension dealing with undulations, and generally making smooth, swift progress. In most situations, on most of the types of roads I drive on, I don’t honestly think a ‘faster’ car would be any, well, faster in my hands – unless what I now see as sensible and realistic caution is disregarded. Sure, if I had a Golf R or similar I’d be physically able to blast along the same roads in a fraction of the time, but I’d have to constantly shut out of my mind thoughts like ‘a cyclist/horse/tractor/pedestrian might be around this corner’, ‘a motorbike could be sweeping around this bend in the middle of the road’ etc etc. Or, I’d drive the same speed around the bends, but just blast any infrequent straight and clear bits (which to me is fun for a few weeks at most, until I get used to that level of acceleration). If I drive swiftly, but with what I see as sensible caution (ie being able to stop or at least substantially slow down in as far I can see), then I struggle to see how something faster will be more fun for me now. I suppose the crux of it is, on roads that I consider to be fun, the limiting factor is me and my own conscience, my sense of self preservation, and my sense of not wanting to be responsible for squashing a cyclist etc. That may be me being pessimistic and old before my time, but that’s the way it is (and even more so when passengers are being carried, which is often). However, I can see why something quicker could be more fun somewhere with good sightlines, better road surfaces and less hazards so that more speed could be safely carried through bends.
With all this in mind, and given the DS3 is still basically a heavy [edit: not actually very heavy after having checked - it feels more substantial than it is. Weird for a Citroen.], numb white good, I think that if my circumstances meant a pure fun car was worthwhile then I’d not want a ‘fast’ car. I’d want something light, beautifully engineered, with a sweet little free revving engine and a crisp, tactile box; 0-60 in no less than 8 seconds would be about right I think. I think that sounds quite a lot like an MX5 (1.5) based on what I’ve read and seen…
The DS3 obviously isn’t all that (and nor were the GTI or 330i to be fair), but for something that’s a) cheap, b) diesel and practically runs on fumes, and c) doesn’t even claim to be anything remotely sporty, I find it can be just as much fun to hustle along – even with all of 100bhp (& 187 ft-lb). The thing I find with the majority of British ‘driving’ roads that I’ve experienced (proper B roads) is that, there just isn’t often the opportunity to safely (in my mind at least) exploit much more than something like the DS3 has to offer. Around where I tend to drive at least, it’s rare to come across stretches of good windy B road that aren’t littered with concealed junctions, driveways, pot holes, random ultra narrow sections etc etc. When I was a younger man, the potential danger of these hazards wasn’t as apparent and a faster car may well have appealed more – but I do sometimes wonder with what cost? These days, I aim to take pleasure from placing the car well, perfecting gear changes, feeling the suspension dealing with undulations, and generally making smooth, swift progress. In most situations, on most of the types of roads I drive on, I don’t honestly think a ‘faster’ car would be any, well, faster in my hands – unless what I now see as sensible and realistic caution is disregarded. Sure, if I had a Golf R or similar I’d be physically able to blast along the same roads in a fraction of the time, but I’d have to constantly shut out of my mind thoughts like ‘a cyclist/horse/tractor/pedestrian might be around this corner’, ‘a motorbike could be sweeping around this bend in the middle of the road’ etc etc. Or, I’d drive the same speed around the bends, but just blast any infrequent straight and clear bits (which to me is fun for a few weeks at most, until I get used to that level of acceleration). If I drive swiftly, but with what I see as sensible caution (ie being able to stop or at least substantially slow down in as far I can see), then I struggle to see how something faster will be more fun for me now. I suppose the crux of it is, on roads that I consider to be fun, the limiting factor is me and my own conscience, my sense of self preservation, and my sense of not wanting to be responsible for squashing a cyclist etc. That may be me being pessimistic and old before my time, but that’s the way it is (and even more so when passengers are being carried, which is often). However, I can see why something quicker could be more fun somewhere with good sightlines, better road surfaces and less hazards so that more speed could be safely carried through bends.
With all this in mind, and given the DS3 is still basically a heavy [edit: not actually very heavy after having checked - it feels more substantial than it is. Weird for a Citroen.], numb white good, I think that if my circumstances meant a pure fun car was worthwhile then I’d not want a ‘fast’ car. I’d want something light, beautifully engineered, with a sweet little free revving engine and a crisp, tactile box; 0-60 in no less than 8 seconds would be about right I think. I think that sounds quite a lot like an MX5 (1.5) based on what I’ve read and seen…
Edited by MaxSo on Tuesday 31st May 17:56
Edited by MaxSo on Tuesday 31st May 21:53
Edited by MaxSo on Tuesday 31st May 21:53
100bhp/ton isn't optimal, in my view. There is too much need to overtake for that kind of power to be optimal.
But I completely agree about feedback and enjoyment from the engine being more important than outright pace. I agree completely that corner entry speeds are dictated by safety, so power only matters much on corner exit (briefly) and for overtaking.
I often find people in slower cars will enter corners much faster than I ever would. They seem to be picking a speed that they know they can get around the corner at, rather than thinking 'What happens if there is a cyclist just around that corner?' (It is a different question whether cyclists should be on NSL roads at all. I think it's madness.)
But I completely agree about feedback and enjoyment from the engine being more important than outright pace. I agree completely that corner entry speeds are dictated by safety, so power only matters much on corner exit (briefly) and for overtaking.
I often find people in slower cars will enter corners much faster than I ever would. They seem to be picking a speed that they know they can get around the corner at, rather than thinking 'What happens if there is a cyclist just around that corner?' (It is a different question whether cyclists should be on NSL roads at all. I think it's madness.)
ORD said:
100bhp/ton isn't optimal, in my view. There is too much need to overtake for that kind of power to be optimal.
But I completely agree about feedback and enjoyment from the engine being more important than outright pace. I agree completely that corner entry speeds are dictated by safety, so power only matters much on corner exit (briefly) and for overtaking.
I often find people in slower cars will enter corners much faster than I ever would. They seem to be picking a speed that they know they can get around the corner at, rather than thinking 'What happens if there is a cyclist just around that corner?' (It is a different question whether cyclists should be on NSL roads at all. I think it's madness.)
With cyclists, whilst I respect the 'right' to ride on NSL roads if they so wish, I do think it's a pretty risky pastime purely because of the way a lot of people drive without seeming to even ponder "what if?". Recently, it's been pedestrians walking along the (wrong) side of the road that have been giving me the heebie-jeebies (not keen on that phrase but couldn't think of another way of putting it!) and making me thankful that I've taken bends at a more thoughtful pace.But I completely agree about feedback and enjoyment from the engine being more important than outright pace. I agree completely that corner entry speeds are dictated by safety, so power only matters much on corner exit (briefly) and for overtaking.
I often find people in slower cars will enter corners much faster than I ever would. They seem to be picking a speed that they know they can get around the corner at, rather than thinking 'What happens if there is a cyclist just around that corner?' (It is a different question whether cyclists should be on NSL roads at all. I think it's madness.)
Re. overtaking, I think that depends a lot of where / when the driving is done and also if it's purely for fun or part of a journey where there is a destination to get to at targeted time. Generally speaking when I drive for fun, I'm doing just that - I allow plenty of time for it and it's not part of a commute etc, so if I get behind a slower vehicle that can't easily and safely be passed, I'll peel off and find another route. Since being in the DS3 and substantially reducing the power to weight I have to play with, I'm still yet to be in a situation where I've been stuck behind something for long. But.. I can definitely see why different circumstances would mean some extra urge would be good. (Oh and the DS3 offers very little enjoyment specifically from the engine... well I suppose I get some enjoyment from it in the sense that 130 odd miles I did cross country last night were still somewhere in the mid 60s mpg, so fuel wise it's something like 7p a mile, which means I can more easily justify more driving)
ORD said:
100bhp/ton isn't optimal, in my view. There is too much need to overtake for that kind of power to be optimal.
I often find people in slower cars will enter corners much faster than I ever would. They seem to be picking a speed that they know they can get around the corner at, rather than thinking 'What happens if there is a cyclist just around that corner?' (
Agreed - it's why I supercharged my MX5 - 115bhp is more fun on an open road but 99% of the time the roads aren't clear and you have to overtake the Sunday drivers which whilst possible in a low powered car - there simply aren't as many chances.I often find people in slower cars will enter corners much faster than I ever would. They seem to be picking a speed that they know they can get around the corner at, rather than thinking 'What happens if there is a cyclist just around that corner?' (
Agreed - when I was young in a mighty 60bhp MKII Escort I wouldn't slow down for anything as it took so long to gain speed I was loathe to lose momentum.
Never mind cyclists at least they are fairly predictable - around here I frequently meet horse riders, two or three abreast covering the entire lane who expect cars to slow to 10mph - which may be reasonable but they seem to ride out in groups and I can meet 3 sets of them on the 3 mile school run.
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