My view of the world has been shaken

[MDUBZ]

ORD said:

100bhp/ton isn't optimal, in my view. There is too much need to overtake for that kind of power to be optimal.

But I completely agree about feedback and enjoyment from the engine being more important than outright pace. I agree completely that corner entry speeds are dictated by safety, so power only matters much on corner exit (briefly) and for overtaking.

I often find people in slower cars will enter corners much faster than I ever would. They seem to be picking a speed that they know they can get around the corner at, rather than thinking 'What happens if there is a cyclist just around that corner?' (It is a different question whether cyclists should be on NSL roads at all. I think it's madness.)

agree, but i'm not sure you have thought through that last bit: almost every connecting road between towns and villages in rural areas is an NSL; you'd never leave the town or village you started in?!?!? which segways nearly nicely into topic:

You're pretty connected to your environment on a bicycle and even with only the power generated by the two pistons (powered by super unleaded cake and a NA engine with restricted airflow) moving at moderately low speeds, they can be fun! On the right road, bombing down switchbacks etc; it is a pretty visceral experience. I want the same from a car: I enjoy speed, but if the experience is dumbed down (as it is in some cars) it can't really be as much fun as when your senses are overloaded? so for me it is about a sensation of speed, the sound, and feeling some sort of connection with the road and the environment around you that delivers the fun.

For overtakes in slower cars I always found a run up was necessary, timing these was a real skill (sometimes required dropping right back before starting a manoeuvre) and quite rewarding when you got it right. - especially if when catching slower cars you could carry speed through a corner to overtake them on the way out... I think driving slower cars also improved my ability to read the road ahead as you had the plan your overtakes more carefully.

[Terminator X]

It's that time ...



TX.

[SlimJim16v]

Harris_I said:

I've reached the conclusion that a Lancia Delta Integrale is for me the car which best entertains a driver on these sorts of roads (assuming I need a modicum of practicality which discounts Caterhams and the like). Small, agile, rorty and tactile trumps the congestion, cameras, uneven surfaces and width restrictions of modern roads. Fast enough to be a hoot, but not so fast that ultimately you're left unsatisfied. And the level of feedback at any speed blows away just about anything on sale today.

I reached the same conclusion several years ago. It's also easy and cheap getting 250bhp from a 16v integrale, giving you the minimum needed, IMHO, 200bhp/tonne.

[ORD]

MDUBZ said:

agree, but i'm not sure you have thought through that last bit: almost every connecting road between towns and villages in rural areas is an NSL; you'd never leave the town or village you started in?!?!?

Good! I dont see bicycles as a sensible form of transportation outside of residential areas. The speed differential is too great. We do not have enough road space in most of this country to allow rolling road blocks. And that is leaving to one side the unacceptable risk to life and limb for the riders.

[1Addicted]

I ran a Peugeot 107 alongside a C63 & TTRS at one point. I had the most fun in the Peugeot as at 50mph on a country road I felt like I could very well die, but it made me feel alive. The TTRS isn't really all that as it's fast but not really fun and there's no sense of speed. The engine note saves it but it needs amplifying with an aftermarket exhaust and the windows down to give you a buzz I reckon. The C63 is Jekyll & Hyde, lazy one minute and then a face-eating animal the next if you alter the gearbox mode, which turns the throttle into an on/off switch. This car has so much soul, and frightening capability but stab it in 2nd gear and you're at NSL, up-change and you're well past 100mph in a matter of seconds. Handling is good but doesn't come into it's own until you're at some kind of high speed, which I where the little Pug was great as it could be fun at 20mph in car park and white knuckle on a B Road, under the speed limit.

The Peugeot sadly met its end when a lorry reversed into it whilst parked, and crushed it. It has been replaced with a Fiesta ST (1.6T) and I it's an absolute hoot. Not fun (scary) in the same way that the Pug was, but it's so sharp all of the time it's hard not to chuck it around.

[MDUBZ]

ORD said:

MDUBZ said:

agree, but i'm not sure you have thought through that last bit: almost every connecting road between towns and villages in rural areas is an NSL; you'd never leave the town or village you started in?!?!?

Good! I dont see bicycles as a sensible form of transportation outside of residential areas. The speed differential is too great. We do not have enough road space in most of this country to allow rolling road blocks. And that is leaving to one side the unacceptable risk to life and limb for the riders.

[ORD]

Roll your eyes all you like Bikes on NSL roads are like smoking - there's no chance it would be lawful if someone came up with the idea now; it's only justification is that it's been allowed until now and people resist change.

[V8RX7]

ORD said:

Roll your eyes all you like Bikes on NSL roads are like smoking - there's no chance it would be lawful if someone came up with the idea now; it's only justification is that it's been allowed until now and people resist change.

I was trying to explain to my young daughter why you couldn't walk / cycle on Motorways and she couldn't understand how it was less safe than on the road outside our house (an NSL)

TBH I couldn't make a reasonable case that it IS safe to cycle on a narrow road with poor sight lines with cars going at 60 yet it isn't safe to cycle in your own lane (the hard shoulder) on wide roads with great sight lines with cars going just 10mph faster.

[kambites]

ORD said:

Roll your eyes all you like Bikes on NSL roads are like smoking - there's no chance it would be lawful if someone came up with the idea now; it's only justification is that it's been allowed until now and people resist change.

If we were somehow starting again completely from scratch; NSL roads would all have both foot-paths and cycle lanes so it wouldn't matter.

We'd also be driving electric cars on the right-hand side of the road and the national speed limit for single carriageway road would be about 40mph.

[MDUBZ]

V8RX7 said:

I was trying to explain to my young daughter why you couldn't walk / cycle on Motorways and she couldn't understand how it was less safe than on the road outside our house (an NSL)

TBH I couldn't make a reasonable case that it IS safe to cycle on a narrow road with poor sight lines with cars going at 60 yet it isn't safe to cycle in your own lane (the hard shoulder) on wide roads with great sight lines with cars going just 10mph faster.

that's a fair observation: imho I felt much more vulnerable cycling on a dual carriage way with large lorries going past (you don't get that on most minor NSLs); a lorry at 60 creates some serious turbulence which can throw you around a bit - I wouldn't do that again!! but on NSLs I don't really see the issue - i feel quite safe on them i try to be courteous to other road users and apart form 1 or 2 dicks most people drive with the same level of courtesy. As a driver you'd have to question whether you should be doing 60 with a poor line of sight - motorways tend to have less bends and therefore higher average speeds than NSLs.

leaving ORDs dodgy analogies behind let's get back on topic; it was about cars that do not need loads of power to be fun..

[ORD]

We answered that one - they need more than 100bhp/ton and probably about 200bho/ton, but that depends on the roads you drive.