RE: Secrets of Subaru's IoM TT record car
Discussion
J4CKO said:
Max_Torque said:
PH said:
the gearbox from a WRC Impreza, the latter able to change gears in eight milliseconds
The wrc box is good, but it ain't ^^^^ THAT good.......(and besides, if you genuinely shifted in 8ms, the cam drive would fail)
vikingaero said:
It's been proven quite a few times with 2 identical cars one with phat alloys and one with standard alloys - that the standard car will be faster around a track. Put phat alloys on for looks but don't kid yourself otherwise.
Source?I lap my M3 way way way faster with 10Js all round up from 8.5/9.5 stagger...
vikingaero said:
Monty Python said:
A tyre that isn't in contact with the road doesn't achieve much - stiff suspension is fine on a billiard-table smooth track where aerodynamic downforce relies on maintaining a fixed distance between the underside of the car and the road but on anything else it's practically useless.
It's been proven quite a few times with 2 identical cars one with phat alloys and one with standard alloys - that the standard car will be faster around a track. Put phat alloys on for looks but don't kid yourself otherwise.xRIEx said:
200Plus Club said:
shoestring7 said:
Kind of ends the bike v car at the TT thing. Just the one lap and a modded saloon is knocking on the door of the fastest bike times.
SS7
it doesnt though, does it? the lap record is 133+now. 126mph average will get you nowhere. not even top ten probably. SS7
when a car has actually beaten the bike time, then its worth mentioning. this was a great attempt by a pro driver in a pro car to match the bikes. there are amateur bike racers going faster as we speak.
126.9 would put him 8th in the Superbike TT.
As for the car and the bike, the bikes are close to road bikes (WSB limits the mods quite significantly). The car however is pushing the limit on what you could call a "modded road car".
Whatever unrestricted bike you put at the TT, there will be a car that is a lot faster. Imagine a le-mans style car but with suitable suspension hooked up to gps. That comparatively heavy, low powered subaru has done really well and is only 51 seconds off the new lap record after his first run. That's only 3 seconds a minute to take off. If anyone thinks there isn't a car that couldn't beat that subaru by 3 seconds a minute then they are crazy...and just imagine if you actually put in a young, world class driver that has learned the track. As good as Mark is (and he's brilliant) it's not like there isn't a better driver out there, nevermind using a PROPER race car.
Taken from a 2014 article:
"This year's crop of LMP1 cars are producing around 1000bhp, which – with a minimum weight of 900kg – gives them a power-to-weight ratio of 1.11bhp/kg."
And then there's the aero and everything else that goes with a racecar like that. Higgins has proved the record is easily doable in the right car.
Taken from a 2014 article:
"This year's crop of LMP1 cars are producing around 1000bhp, which – with a minimum weight of 900kg – gives them a power-to-weight ratio of 1.11bhp/kg."
And then there's the aero and everything else that goes with a racecar like that. Higgins has proved the record is easily doable in the right car.
Edited by Kenny1 on Monday 6th June 13:44
SteveSteveson said:
The car however is pushing the limit on what you could call a "modded road car".
There is stuff like the factory-built roadgoing Caterham 620R, the various radicals and so on.TBH I'd like the squash the "car versus bike" thing. I think an SR8 would break 17 minutes for the lap.
stuckmojo said:
Not interested in the car vs bike debate. Bikers on TT have balls the size of planets.
As for the car, this looks like what a 2016 GR.B car would be like. Love it.
I was just about to post that we should forget the car v bike angle and look at this as a glorious little window of opportunity for people to re-live some of the legendary, exciting and terrifying Group B style moments that are long gone in competitive motorsport.As for the car, this looks like what a 2016 GR.B car would be like. Love it.
DonkeyApple said:
stuckmojo said:
Not interested in the car vs bike debate. Bikers on TT have balls the size of planets.
As for the car, this looks like what a 2016 GR.B car would be like. Love it.
I was just about to post that we should forget the car v bike angle and look at this as a glorious little window of opportunity for people to re-live some of the legendary, exciting and terrifying Group B style moments that are long gone in competitive motorsport.As for the car, this looks like what a 2016 GR.B car would be like. Love it.
Kenny1 said:
Whatever unrestricted bike you put at the TT, there will be a car that is a lot faster. Imagine a le-mans style car but with suitable suspension hooked up to gps. That comparatively heavy, low powered subaru has done really well and is only 51 seconds off the new lap record after his first run. That's only 3 seconds a minute to take off. If anyone thinks there isn't a car that couldn't beat that subaru by 3 seconds a minute then they are crazy...and just imagine if you actually put in a young, world class driver that has learned the track. As good as Mark is (and he's brilliant) it's not like there isn't a better driver out there, nevermind using a PROPER race car.
Taken from a 2014 article:
"This year's crop of LMP1 cars are producing around 1000bhp, which – with a minimum weight of 900kg – gives them a power-to-weight ratio of 1.11bhp/kg."
And then there's the aero and everything else that goes with a racecar like that. Higgins has proved the record is easily doable in the right car.
If there was someone rich enough and mental enough to modify an LMP1 car with rally suspension, and pay an elite driver for his time to learn the circuit, all just to lap the TT mountain circuit the world would be a better place.Taken from a 2014 article:
"This year's crop of LMP1 cars are producing around 1000bhp, which – with a minimum weight of 900kg – gives them a power-to-weight ratio of 1.11bhp/kg."
And then there's the aero and everything else that goes with a racecar like that. Higgins has proved the record is easily doable in the right car.
Edited by Kenny1 on Monday 6th June 13:44
Edited by Gypsum Fantastic on Monday 6th June 14:19
SteveSteveson said:
And 14th in last years Senior TT, and Michale Dunlop has gone considerably faster in practice this year.
As for the car and the bike, the bikes are close to road bikes (WSB limits the mods quite significantly). The car however is pushing the limit on what you could call a "modded road car".
Indeed, I was going to mention that the Senior TT will be a different kettle of fish.As for the car and the bike, the bikes are close to road bikes (WSB limits the mods quite significantly). The car however is pushing the limit on what you could call a "modded road car".
It's a bit misleading to say the bikes are close to road bikes - a superbike is in the region of £250k (or at least it was about that when I was following BSB/WSB) - the forks alone are almost the cost of your average litre road bike. The 2015 standardised ECU was €8000.
Although nowhere near what this car is, I did see a very nice Impreza hatch putting out 528bhp, nice carbon WRC wing - according to the dealer principal it was "mental" when it came on boost. As a modded road car it was almost in the region of what this car offers, even though the WRC bits raise it up further, same as the WSB-specific bits raise the bikes above the road bike equivalents.
xRIEx said:
Indeed, I was going to mention that the Senior TT will be a different kettle of fish.
It's a bit misleading to say the bikes are close to road bikes - a superbike is in the region of £250k (or at least it was about that when I was following BSB/WSB) - the forks alone are almost the cost of your average litre road bike. The 2015 standardised ECU was €8000.
Although nowhere near what this car is, I did see a very nice Impreza hatch putting out 528bhp, nice carbon WRC wing - according to the dealer principal it was "mental" when it came on boost. As a modded road car it was almost in the region of what this car offers, even though the WRC bits raise it up further, same as the WSB-specific bits raise the bikes above the road bike equivalents.
The bikes at the TT are not road bikes but if you gave Michael Dunlop a standard BMW S1000RR with slicks he would likely still do a 120+ lap. It's a bit misleading to say the bikes are close to road bikes - a superbike is in the region of £250k (or at least it was about that when I was following BSB/WSB) - the forks alone are almost the cost of your average litre road bike. The 2015 standardised ECU was €8000.
Although nowhere near what this car is, I did see a very nice Impreza hatch putting out 528bhp, nice carbon WRC wing - according to the dealer principal it was "mental" when it came on boost. As a modded road car it was almost in the region of what this car offers, even though the WRC bits raise it up further, same as the WSB-specific bits raise the bikes above the road bike equivalents.
Very impressive time. Considering how few laps they have done in the car and how few the driver has done also it's getting closer and closer to the bikes and this is not even a balls out modified car compared to something like Pikes Peak jobs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y20CLumT2Sg
The bikers will always have the biggest balls though. Even when slower
And it will come.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y20CLumT2Sg
The bikers will always have the biggest balls though. Even when slower
And it will come.tbtstt said:
grumpy52 said:
Most of the boy racers cars are actually slower than standard ,despite their claims of ridiculous bhp .
The suspension set ups usually end up throwing them in the greenery ,add that to zero talent and you know the rest .
I would say there is a balance. When a mass production car rolls out the factory it's setup will be a compromise of many factors: handling, ride comfort etc. The suspension set ups usually end up throwing them in the greenery ,add that to zero talent and you know the rest .
Reducing the ride height can improve the some aspects of the car, but it will reduce others...
...having said that, there is a limit. Dropping a car as close to the ground as possible will not automatically make it better, especially in the case of a road car.
They think chopping the springs and fitting bigger wheels/tyres sorts the suspension.
Most induction kits don't work and most exhaust mods just make the car louder .
The worst one that I had to deal with was an MG/Rover 45 that the owner thought was the mutts nuts but was so badly modified it was dangerous. All the work had been carried out by various local "tuning " companies.
From memory it(allegedly ) had ,upgraded ecu ,induction kit and tuned exhaust.
It actually produced 25bhp less than standard when put on the dyno .
It had been fitted with a suspension kit ,but unfortunately the front springs had been fitted on the rear and vice versa ,the spring rates were totally wrong and the suspension bottomed out very easily not helped by the removal of bump stops .
The wheel/ tyre combination fouled all the arches and had very little lock on the front .
The brakes supposedly had uprated friction material, the front pads were so hard as to give minimal friction .
It failed its mot !
Non of the mods had been declared to the insurance company .
Do we get to see this on ITV4 at all this week?
The car vs bike thing is just a bit of a moot point; you're not comparing apples with apples - however it's great to see someone having a serious attempt at the car record. The perfect car to give it a go in is a tricky question to answer. An LMP I don't think would do the job; it relies on downforce to generate lap times (I'm guessing a good proportion is under-body aero too) which they can do on relatively smooth circuits, but the TT circuit would probably be too bumpy (mind you, if memory serves, it's still WAY the best road on the island!
). Not sure about how a Radical generates downforce, but I'm not sure you could raise the ride height enough to still have a working suspension - I'd guess you would need to redesign the geometry and pick-up points. You need something that works with quite a bit of suspension travel, it needs to absorb bumps at over 150mph that would make a Grand Prix/LMP car look like it was auditioning for 'The Dukes of Hazzard'! Maybe a bit longer wheelbase (than the Subaru) might help - don't know the dimensions off the top of my head, but a GTR maybe? Tarmac-spec WRC cars I guess would be the closest current top-line motorsport vehicles to what you'd need. I'm no expert, so who knows. I'm sure there are people that DO know however, and hopefully they can convince some manufacturers/racing car builders take up the challenge. Until then, well done Subaru! 
The car vs bike thing is just a bit of a moot point; you're not comparing apples with apples - however it's great to see someone having a serious attempt at the car record. The perfect car to give it a go in is a tricky question to answer. An LMP I don't think would do the job; it relies on downforce to generate lap times (I'm guessing a good proportion is under-body aero too) which they can do on relatively smooth circuits, but the TT circuit would probably be too bumpy (mind you, if memory serves, it's still WAY the best road on the island!
). Not sure about how a Radical generates downforce, but I'm not sure you could raise the ride height enough to still have a working suspension - I'd guess you would need to redesign the geometry and pick-up points. You need something that works with quite a bit of suspension travel, it needs to absorb bumps at over 150mph that would make a Grand Prix/LMP car look like it was auditioning for 'The Dukes of Hazzard'! Maybe a bit longer wheelbase (than the Subaru) might help - don't know the dimensions off the top of my head, but a GTR maybe? Tarmac-spec WRC cars I guess would be the closest current top-line motorsport vehicles to what you'd need. I'm no expert, so who knows. I'm sure there are people that DO know however, and hopefully they can convince some manufacturers/racing car builders take up the challenge. Until then, well done Subaru! J4CKO said:
Max_Torque said:
PH said:
the gearbox from a WRC Impreza, the latter able to change gears in eight milliseconds
The wrc box is good, but it ain't ^^^^ THAT good.......(and besides, if you genuinely shifted in 8ms, the cam drive would fail)
I´d besurprised if the gearbox is a WRC Impreza unit unchanged. Even at the height of the early large-restrictor WRC regulations the Subaru would "only" have had around 350bhp maximum, with a similar shortfall in torque. The Prodrive gearbox would not have been so over-engineered to take nearly double that, especially not for these conditions of what is effectively a very fast 50km tarmac stage. Uprated internals maybe?
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