RE: Secrets of Subaru's IoM TT record car

[Welshbeef]

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As I said if we exclude your off road/AWD that's different.

Also I'd argue that Impreza PPP and the like are a minuscule seller in total UK car sales terms.
Heck in my own garage I've owned 2 cars which had a viscous coupling / LSD /AWD setup which is a high % of my car ownership but the very vast majority of cars sold are bog standard cars not sports versions

[Welshbeef]

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Let's take the biggest UK car seller the VW Golf. How many models have a LSD as Standard? The Golf R/GTI? The rest certainly not - and of all Golf sales those represent a very low % of total golf sales (assuming both have LSD).

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

Rover 827i Vitesse
1427kg
177bhp
So 124bhp per tonne
0-60mph 8 seconds
1/4 mile 16.6 seconds
2.7 Ltr engine
Claimed top speed 220km/h or 137mph

Achieved a IOM TT average lap time 100mph or 73% of its top speed.

2014 Siburu could do 160mph and did a 117mph lap time so 73% of its top speed

The latest Suburu can do 180mph and has done a 128mph lap time so 71% of its top speed

Those numbers are pretty consistent.... Especially as the last one has one more run tomorrow - for it to be 73% of its top speed it would need to do 131.4mph or about 27secobds quicker.


Interesting.

Well of course there's a relationship between top speed and average lap speed but that's largely down to gearing and the bikes also have to balance this. For example, top speed of the Fireblade a the Northwest was 209 mph but at the Sulby speed trap of the TT, it struggled to hit 190 mph. I think a greater factor will be the stress on the Subaru's tyres which seem to be be struggling with the combination of weight and power required to make it go fast. They are only made of rubber after all.

If they could get it down to say 500 KGs, they would probably do much better but then again, it gets further away from being what most people would consider a car to be.

We shall see tomorrow I guess.

[Welshbeef]

Let the bants continue .

[stuart-b]

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He does have a point Nanook. Many manufacturers don't put LSDs in and now the only LSD you can get with a BMW is an M car. Mine desperately needed an LSD, it even has the M engine but they decided to skip the most important bit, suspension and LSD !

Lots of manufacturers are now using ediff with brakes as it's predictable and cheap.

So his statement of "very few % of cars have a diff, why did the old Rover" is probably valid too. I expect they added an LSD to make it drive well as a last ditch effort to get some sales. It was an "easy" but expensive upgrade.

[Slippydiff]

wormus said:

I think a greater factor will be the stress on the Subaru's tyres which seem to be be struggling with the combination of weight and power required to make it go fast. They are only made of rubber after all.

From that other thread

Slippydiff said:

The biggest issue is that WRC cars run on relatively narrow wheels/tyres (8J X 18 for Tarmac), and accordingly their suspension geometry is optimised for this width of wheel.
Higgins car may be running wider wheels with it's Dunlop BTCC tyres, but judging by the width of the wheelarch extensions, I suspect they're little if any wider at all than the WRC width wheels.

The above is the crux of the problem. You can't just chuck 10,11,12" wide wheels/slicks onto a WRC suspension layout optimised for 8" wide wheels.

Rest assured Prodrive wouldn't have chosen to run a near 700hp car (4wd or not) on 8" wide wheels and BTCC tyres. As I've said previously, those BTCC slicks are designed to run on a circuit car (the Michelin WRC tyres aren't rated for the speeds Higgins planned doing) with spring rates many times greater than this car. I'll leave it to your imagination what the sidewalls of those Dunlops are like ...

[PorkInsider]

Slippydiff said:

Slippydiff said:

So genuine question, how much time do you think a 550-600hp, 4wd, slick shod car would give away to the fastest bike/rider combination over a standing start ?

Taps fingers... still waiting on answer on this one, someone must be willing to put forward the time differential between this car and the fastest bike on the island from 0 -150mph ????

You can carry on waiting, my friend. I don't give a flying fk about comparing 0-150 times.

You quoted what I said, regarding not comparing apples with apples (8th placed bike's average speed over the entire race against MH's single flying lap) and took it to be a slagging off of MH's achievement.

Poor comprehension.

[CraigyMc]

Slippydiff said:

wormus said:

I think a greater factor will be the stress on the Subaru's tyres which seem to be be struggling with the combination of weight and power required to make it go fast. They are only made of rubber after all.

From that other thread

Slippydiff said:

The biggest issue is that WRC cars run on relatively narrow wheels/tyres (8J X 18 for Tarmac), and accordingly their suspension geometry is optimised for this width of wheel.
Higgins car may be running wider wheels with it's Dunlop BTCC tyres, but judging by the width of the wheelarch extensions, I suspect they're little if any wider at all than the WRC width wheels.

The above is the crux of the problem. You can't just chuck 10,11,12" wide wheels/slicks onto a WRC suspension layout optimised for 8" wide wheels.

Rest assured Prodrive wouldn't have chosen to run a near 700hp car (4wd or not) on 8" wide wheels and BTCC tyres. As I've said previously, those BTCC slicks are designed to run on a circuit car (the Michelin WRC tyres aren't rated for the speeds Higgins planned doing) with spring rates many times greater than this car. I'll leave it to your imagination what the sidewalls of those Dunlops are like ...

The wheels might be 8, but the tyres are 245s, 9.5"

[Slippydiff]

CraigyMc said:

The wheels might be 8, but the tyres are 245s, 9.5"

Ah, thanks for that sSo they are slightly wider than the standard WRC rims and tyres. WRC tyres are 225/650/18 IIRC (though they're closer to a 235 in practice)

[Slippydiff]

PorkInsider said:

Slippydiff said:

Slippydiff said:

So genuine question, how much time do you think a 550-600hp, 4wd, slick shod car would give away to the fastest bike/rider combination over a standing start ?

Taps fingers... still waiting on answer on this one, someone must be willing to put forward the time differential between this car and the fastest bike on the island from 0 -150mph ????

You can carry on waiting, my friend. I don't give a flying fk about comparing 0-150 times.

You quoted what I said, regarding not comparing apples with apples (8th placed bike's average speed over the entire race against MH's single flying lap) and took it to be a slagging off of MH's achievement.

Poor comprehension.

On the contrary I asked "someone", not you specifically.


You (and others) have put forward the bike's standing start as a handicap. I was merely suggesting that even if you made the car do a standing start, there'd not be a massive difference in their respective 0-150 times.

But we digress, McGuinness seems to be in awe of what Higgins does, likewise Higgins of McGuinness :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfjdORv2Je4

Easy enough to put an end to the not comparing apples with apples argument, get Higgins and McGuinness to do two laps either from a standing start or a rolling start. If the car can't do two laps due to having insufficient fuel, they'd have to make it make it one.
Pretty sure if they were asked (and the organisers let them) they'd be happy to go set times on an equal footing. My guess is this car would need a lot more honing (and Higgins a lot more practice) to equal the fastest bike time, let alone beat it.

Either way, as Wormus has said, let's see what tomorrow's effort brings. My guess is the Prodrive guys have been making further tweaks to the car over the past 2days, if the weather is optimal, Higgins should get very close to a 130mph average flying lap.

[Welshbeef]

What time is the run on?

[PorkInsider]

Slippydiff said:

Either way, as Wormus has said, let's see what tomorrow's effort brings. My guess is the Prodrive guys have been making further tweaks to the car over the past 2days, if the weather is optimal, Higgins should get very close to a 130mph average flying lap.

We can agree on that bit.

I want to see what the car do. I'm intrigued to see what it will take for a car to get close to what the road bikes (super stock class) are capable of.

[ZX10R NIN]

They had the boost turned up for the 128mph run from the 600bhp they were running before, I'm not sure if they'll get a chance to run today with the weather delays the senior is now pushed back.

[neilly500]

anyone else notice the latest mobile phone tech?? nokia 6310i and car kit... at least 10yrs old!!!!

[anonymous-user]

neilly500 said:

... at least 10yrs old!!!!

A bit like the Subaru's lap record times?

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 10th June 13:24

[CraigyMc]

neilly500 said:

anyone else notice the latest mobile phone tech?? nokia 6310i and car kit... at least 10yrs old!!!!

It's reliable, the battery lasts for weeks, and the output transmission strength is actually superior to most modern phones - otherwise known as "right tool for the job".

Edited to add: There's a 6310 in the 600+bhp record car too, but it's bolted into that one for obvious reasons.

Edited by CraigyMc on Friday 10th June 14:15

[AntiLagGC8]

wormus said:

neilly500 said:

... at least 10yrs old!!!!

A bit like the Subaru's lap record times?

Edited by wormus on Friday 10th June 13:24

Or to look at it another way, bikes have been racing at the TT for over a 100 years and have had extensive practice/development and in the few years of the Subaru being there it's already surpassed most of the field! It only took the bikes about 90 years to do a 130mph run!

Joking aside the Impreza has shown that a fairly modest performing car can put in fast times around the course which many of the bike community including yourself Worus thought wasn't possible.

Anyway, the Prodrive twitter feed is reporting the next Impreza run to be around 5.30 this afternoon, good luck!

https://twitter.com/prodrive

[CraigyMc]

Looking forward to 5.30pm.

Here's the underside of the beast (flat floor for lower drag and better aero).

[anonymous-user]

AntiLagGC8 said:

Or to look at it another way, bikes have been racing at the TT for over a 100 years and have had extensive practice/development and in the few years of the Subaru being there it's already surpassed most of the field! It only took the bikes about 90 years to do a 130mph run!

Joking aside the Impreza has shown that a fairly modest performing car can put in fast times around the course which many of the bike community including yourself Worus thought wasn't possible.

Anyway, the Prodrive twitter feed is reporting the next Impreza run to be around 5.30 this afternoon, good luck!

https://twitter.com/prodrive

I think you'll find it's not the same bike and rider since 1907 and cars have evolved a bit since then too!

Hope he goes safe and well. If he starts his run up from Kate's Cottage, he might be able to build up enough speed to beat the bike lap record

[wc98]

now i am impressed that took some serious balls and skill . regarding bikes vs cars , no matter what the course a car can always be built to be faster than a bike, main advantage once corner speeds are factored in are contact patch and aero.
take away all aero , and i mean all and things will stay a bit closer with a purpose built car still coming out on top.

regarding riders vs drivers. i would wager any ordinary punter that has ever been in a fastish car with someone that races bikes would probably wish not to repeat the experience not down a uk b road anyway !