RE: Secrets of Subaru's IoM TT record car
Discussion
generationx said:
I´d besurprised if the gearbox is a WRC Impreza unit unchanged. Even at the height of the early large-restrictor WRC regulations the Subaru would "only" have had around 350bhp maximum, with a similar shortfall in torque. The Prodrive gearbox would not have been so over-engineered to take nearly double that, especially not for these conditions of what is effectively a very fast 50km tarmac stage. Uprated internals maybe?
It's torque you need to look at for transmissions. 2.0 WRC cars were producing >600Nm by their end. Air restrictors that WRC cars (and most other race series) run limit torque above a certain rpm when they choke. So that means you can have tonnes and tonnes of torque low down but they quickly run out of puff. With it removed they will probably produce about the same peak torque (if not less because of higher rpms and turbo designed for higher speeds) but it will be produced at a higher rpm and for longer.
They produced so much torque at the bottom end that they would have ~200BHP at IDLE in stage mode (2000rpm idle).
Kenny1 said:
Whatever unrestricted bike you put at the TT, there will be a car that is a lot faster. Imagine a le-mans style car but with suitable suspension hooked up to gps. That comparatively heavy, low powered subaru has done really well and is only 51 seconds off the new lap record after his first run. That's only 3 seconds a minute to take off. If anyone thinks there isn't a car that couldn't beat that subaru by 3 seconds a minute then they are crazy...and just imagine if you actually put in a young, world class driver that has learned the track. As good as Mark is (and he's brilliant) it's not like there isn't a better driver out there, nevermind using a PROPER race car.
I've spent a fair bit of time over the last week or two watching some on board of both bikes and MH's efforts. Full lap from 2015 is here, well worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7gmbQ8KxM4
One thing that is clear is that perhaps above anything else, all of the quick guys (including MH) know the TT track inside out, every bump, every camber, every braking reference etc. The road positioning and flow is just gob smacking. That isn't to undersell the level of skill on display as well but I think car/bike control might be less important than knowing where the track goes when considering the sheer speed involved. I'm not sure how long it would take another driver (no matter how talented) to get up to that level of acquaintance and where the opportunity would come from. 37 miles and 200 corners makes the Nordschleife look like a karting track!
I think Mark might actually be the perfect choice for these record efforts and hats off to him. He's certainly impressing me!
Edited by Gad-Westy on Monday 6th June 15:59
jason61c said:
Lets not get into a car vs bike.
you get zero room for error on a bike, none.
In reality, there is no room for error on any vehicle being raced to its very limit, regardless of whether it is a bike or a car. The difference lies in the likely end result when an error occurs.you get zero room for error on a bike, none.
bigmowley< I think the scales at that picture are way off. TT course is about 60 km and Nurburgring VLN course 24 km in our mainland money, right? But looks more like 5 times difference on that picture.
Back to the main topic I think M.Higgins is doing awesome job and cannot wait to see some proper footage. For sure there are faster cars than WRC/Touring car derived Subaru, but I don't think you can make an LMP1 car work well on high suspension setup. So I think unrestricted WRC like car is pretty much the right car for the job here and you would need something more bespoke as Loeb's Pikes Peak Peugeot to really go faster without high chance of disaster. And speaking driver abilities - I think it takes very different set of skills and also different set of mind than any other motorsport course. You can't simply assume that some WRC hot shoe (or Moto GP champ in case of bikes) would be quicker here. Only name with high probability of needed skillset that comes to my mind is again Loeb, as he proved he can cope with pretty much everything thrown at him from rally car to F1 and everything in between.
Back to the main topic I think M.Higgins is doing awesome job and cannot wait to see some proper footage. For sure there are faster cars than WRC/Touring car derived Subaru, but I don't think you can make an LMP1 car work well on high suspension setup. So I think unrestricted WRC like car is pretty much the right car for the job here and you would need something more bespoke as Loeb's Pikes Peak Peugeot to really go faster without high chance of disaster. And speaking driver abilities - I think it takes very different set of skills and also different set of mind than any other motorsport course. You can't simply assume that some WRC hot shoe (or Moto GP champ in case of bikes) would be quicker here. Only name with high probability of needed skillset that comes to my mind is again Loeb, as he proved he can cope with pretty much everything thrown at him from rally car to F1 and everything in between.
Saw this pop up on Twitter today, crazy fast!
https://twitter.com/prodrive/status/73980973992894...
(Volume warning, it is quite loud!)
https://twitter.com/prodrive/status/73980973992894...
(Volume warning, it is quite loud!)
Gad-Westy said:
bigmowley said:
128.73MPH on second lap. Good effort!
Incredible. I thought 123 would be some achievement before he started.I remember big Dave Jefferies doing the first 125mph lap back in 1999 on the V & M R1. Never thought I'd see the day when a car was faster.
Massive pat on the back for Higgins
GroundEffect said:
It's torque you need to look at for transmissions. 2.0 WRC cars were producing >600Nm by their end.
The most i personally saw was 843Nm at about 1800rpm, with the combustor ALS running in transient mode, that's 421Nm/litre ;-)The WRC box is WAY stronger than it needs to be to handle the dynamics shock loadings from things like wheels spinning up then slamming back down onto tarmac with a nice hot soft slick when the wroks drivers gave it 1st gear death out of a tight bumpy hairpin etc.
MyVTECGoesBwaaah said:
Saw this pop up on Twitter today, crazy fast!
https://twitter.com/prodrive/status/73980973992894...
(Volume warning, it is quite loud!)
Now that's what I'm talking about https://twitter.com/prodrive/status/73980973992894...
(Volume warning, it is quite loud!)
. If that's nearly as impressive as some of the bikes passing - guessing it was 175mph in 5th ?
True it has
narrow easy
Too bumpy easy
Ohhh the bridge easy
Needs big balls easy
Will struggle to get a 120mph on the best of days easy
Too twisty bikes straight line them car will have to be slow - easy.
Game over chaps especially as this is far from the pinnacle of cars it's fast sure sounds lovely and looks really good but would get humped by so many cars.
I'd like to see this car on a different track say the ring to give a benchmark.
narrow easy
Too bumpy easy
Ohhh the bridge easy
Needs big balls easy
Will struggle to get a 120mph on the best of days easy
Too twisty bikes straight line them car will have to be slow - easy.
Game over chaps especially as this is far from the pinnacle of cars it's fast sure sounds lovely and looks really good but would get humped by so many cars.
I'd like to see this car on a different track say the ring to give a benchmark.
hairykrishna said:
At least it's moved the debate on. The annual 'car vs bike' thread is normally filled with people insisting that it's too bumpy for a car to be quicker than a bike 
It's quicker than a lot of bikes, but it's not quicker than the quickest bikes though, is it? 
Damn impressive whichever way you look at it.
J4CKO said:
Why is that then ?
Have you ever ridden a motorbike?Have you watched a two wheeled lap of the tt?
could you imagine trying to do the same speed with a tiny contact patch, ZERO room for any error, Zero room for too much throttle or brake, feeling every bump though your body, constantly moving your body around as a counter weight for constant laps.
Its an impressive lap anyway, not taking anything away from what he's done.
It'd be nice for this technological achievement to filter down to real cars somewhat.
Either, a Prodrive Impre... I mean WRX, sorry Subaru... with (unusually for the "performance" variant) compliant suspension and a bit more power than standard... or for the barry scene to start thinking that floor-scraping ride height with immovable suspension is no longer cool.
Either, a Prodrive Impre... I mean WRX, sorry Subaru... with (unusually for the "performance" variant) compliant suspension and a bit more power than standard... or for the barry scene to start thinking that floor-scraping ride height with immovable suspension is no longer cool.
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