Is a Final Written warning justified?
Discussion
A friend of mine received a final written warning last week for 'Using a vehicle and taking it home without permission'
Some details:
Been with the company for 9 years.
Well regarded, always receiving full bonus.
They've been allowed to take vehicles home before with no issue.
This vehicle had a retail price of £75k. They were told in their disciplinary that a company rule states that vehicles over a certain value should not be taken home without director permission. When questioned what the amount was, HR couldn't tell them a figure.
These company rules are not in the handbook or available anywhere online.
The vehicle was taken home as they finished work at 9pm and the premises were closed, the vehicle contained expensive work equipment so he thought it best to take the vehicle home.
The high value vehicle was used as it was the only vehicle available to them at the time for a urgent job that he was already running late for.
Some details:
Been with the company for 9 years.
Well regarded, always receiving full bonus.
They've been allowed to take vehicles home before with no issue.
This vehicle had a retail price of £75k. They were told in their disciplinary that a company rule states that vehicles over a certain value should not be taken home without director permission. When questioned what the amount was, HR couldn't tell them a figure.
These company rules are not in the handbook or available anywhere online.
The vehicle was taken home as they finished work at 9pm and the premises were closed, the vehicle contained expensive work equipment so he thought it best to take the vehicle home.
The high value vehicle was used as it was the only vehicle available to them at the time for a urgent job that he was already running late for.
Do you have / can you get a copy of the company's disciplinary process? Did they follow it? If it gets as far as a tribunal, the reason that employers lose is usually that they haven't followed their own processes.
Going straight to a final written warning seems harsh to me - were there previous warnings?
Going straight to a final written warning seems harsh to me - were there previous warnings?
From what you say it looks as though they've decided to get rid of him. HR will know that people on Final Warnings are usually not in post for very long after a warning is issued.
He needs to gather evidence and be ready for a fight, or find another position.
For what it's worth, on the bones of your description he has a good case. That said, he's not yet suffered any detriment. If he wants to fight it, then I think he'll need to appeal the warning, if that is possible.
Before he does anything he should have a chat with an employment lawyer.
He needs to gather evidence and be ready for a fight, or find another position.
For what it's worth, on the bones of your description he has a good case. That said, he's not yet suffered any detriment. If he wants to fight it, then I think he'll need to appeal the warning, if that is possible.
Before he does anything he should have a chat with an employment lawyer.
IanA2 said:
From what you say it looks as though they've decided to get rid of him. HR will know that people on Final Warnings are usually not in post for very long after a warning is issued.
He needs to gather evidence and be ready for a fight, or find another position.
For what it's worth, on the bones of your description he has a good case. That said, he's not yet suffered any detriment. If he wants to fight it, then I think he'll need to appeal the warning, if that is possible.
Before he does anything he should have a chat with an employment lawyer.
It appears that a new manager has joined the company and taken a dislike to him (this manager made the complaint).He needs to gather evidence and be ready for a fight, or find another position.
For what it's worth, on the bones of your description he has a good case. That said, he's not yet suffered any detriment. If he wants to fight it, then I think he'll need to appeal the warning, if that is possible.
Before he does anything he should have a chat with an employment lawyer.
All other managers and directors within the company are fond of him.
He's annoyed as he love's his job and was genuinely trying to do the right thing.
Appeal.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/problems-at...
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/problems-at...
CAB said:
The appeal process should be impartial. Your appeal should be dealt with by a manager who has not been involved in your case before and who is senior to the manager who made the decision.
Phunk said:
IanA2 said:
From what you say it looks as though they've decided to get rid of him. HR will know that people on Final Warnings are usually not in post for very long after a warning is issued.
He needs to gather evidence and be ready for a fight, or find another position.
For what it's worth, on the bones of your description he has a good case. That said, he's not yet suffered any detriment. If he wants to fight it, then I think he'll need to appeal the warning, if that is possible.
Before he does anything he should have a chat with an employment lawyer.
It appears that a new manager has joined the company and taken a dislike to him (this manager made the complaint).He needs to gather evidence and be ready for a fight, or find another position.
For what it's worth, on the bones of your description he has a good case. That said, he's not yet suffered any detriment. If he wants to fight it, then I think he'll need to appeal the warning, if that is possible.
Before he does anything he should have a chat with an employment lawyer.
All other managers and directors within the company are fond of him.
He's annoyed as he love's his job and was genuinely trying to do the right thing.
If there is nothing in a hand book and HR cant find a definition of high value then the appeal route seems reasonable.
What we might be missing is was the vehicle insured too, when at home. Once again the company have not been clear.
In some organisation the appeal may mean the sanction goes higher, ie dismissal.
Your friend needs to consider this and in context with how long a final warning stays on file, I'd think that would be 12 months, but would be considered in any future discplinaries.
Is he in a Trade Union, because if he is he should be supported by them.
What we might be missing is was the vehicle insured too, when at home. Once again the company have not been clear.
In some organisation the appeal may mean the sanction goes higher, ie dismissal.
Your friend needs to consider this and in context with how long a final warning stays on file, I'd think that would be 12 months, but would be considered in any future discplinaries.
Is he in a Trade Union, because if he is he should be supported by them.
berlintaxi said:
anothernameitist said:
What we might be missing is was the vehicle insured too, when at home.
That was my first thought, the company seem vague however if he has been there some time you would expect him to know the proceedures.Depends on the place, sales guys at one company I worked at were given an appraisal by their manager if they hadnt had any warnings because they werent pushing it far enough and being too safe. One guy had 3 Finals I think. It was more a paper pushing exercise and being seen to be doing something by HR, the managers would always overrule them
Has anyone else ever taken said vehicle home?
Where should it have been parked?
Had employee been made aware of this?
Any access issues for parking vehicle in the correct place at that time of the evening?
High value vehicle plus kit being parked - any lone worker issues?
How was employee supposed to get home at that time?
Where was he supposed to store the high value equipment. At home?
Where should it have been parked?
Had employee been made aware of this?
Any access issues for parking vehicle in the correct place at that time of the evening?
High value vehicle plus kit being parked - any lone worker issues?
How was employee supposed to get home at that time?
Where was he supposed to store the high value equipment. At home?
andy-xr said:
Depends on the place, sales guys at one company I worked at were given an appraisal by their manager if they hadnt had any warnings because they werent pushing it far enough and being too safe. One guy had 3 Finals I think. It was more a paper pushing exercise and being seen to be doing something by HR, the managers would always overrule them
O/T, but that sounds like an awul place to work. I can imagine some sweaty sales rep in a shiny suit, desperate for a warning, stalking the workplace looking for a work experience girl to grope.I've never worked anywhere that had a Discipline Policy that allowed the process to go straight to a final written warning.
Most companies have verbal, written, then final written built in so there is a process to follow. Each one would document the criteria to meet/fail to enact the next stage or remove it.
The only time this was ignored was if there was a suspicion of gross misconduct, which was then preceded by suspension and ultimately dismissal.
I've worked for 4 companies, so not a complete sample, but I still think this is very rare. If it were me, I would only concentrate on what the Discipline Policy says and go from there, if the final warning is allowed but is disproportionate, I'd be refusing to sign it and seeking assistance.
Most companies have verbal, written, then final written built in so there is a process to follow. Each one would document the criteria to meet/fail to enact the next stage or remove it.
The only time this was ignored was if there was a suspicion of gross misconduct, which was then preceded by suspension and ultimately dismissal.
I've worked for 4 companies, so not a complete sample, but I still think this is very rare. If it were me, I would only concentrate on what the Discipline Policy says and go from there, if the final warning is allowed but is disproportionate, I'd be refusing to sign it and seeking assistance.
Jefferson Steelflex said:
I've never worked anywhere that had a Discipline Policy that allowed the process to go straight to a final written warning.
Most companies have verbal, written, then final written built in so there is a process to follow. Each one would document the criteria to meet/fail to enact the next stage or remove it.
The only time this was ignored was if there was a suspicion of gross misconduct, which was then preceded by suspension and ultimately dismissal.
I've worked for 4 companies, so not a complete sample, but I still think this is very rare. If it were me, I would only concentrate on what the Discipline Policy says and go from there, if the final warning is allowed but is disproportionate, I'd be refusing to sign it and seeking assistance.
We have all the sanctions there, but if the magnitude of the alegation is serious enogh then straigh to final. Most companies have verbal, written, then final written built in so there is a process to follow. Each one would document the criteria to meet/fail to enact the next stage or remove it.
The only time this was ignored was if there was a suspicion of gross misconduct, which was then preceded by suspension and ultimately dismissal.
I've worked for 4 companies, so not a complete sample, but I still think this is very rare. If it were me, I would only concentrate on what the Discipline Policy says and go from there, if the final warning is allowed but is disproportionate, I'd be refusing to sign it and seeking assistance.
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff