RE: Honda Civic Type R generations: EP3 vs. FN2 vs. FK

RE: Honda Civic Type R generations: EP3 vs. FN2 vs. FK

Author
Discussion

Vyse

1,224 posts

123 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
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Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Leejay-B said:
It's a shame they didn't chuck some N/A K20's in the CRZ to say goodbye to such a good engine.
That would have been a great combination yes

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Leejay-B said:
It's a shame they didn't chuck some N/A K20's in the CRZ to say goodbye to such a good engine.
Now that would have been an interesting development! yes

ShuthanVtec

256 posts

128 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Squirrelofwoe said:
For what it's worth regarding the steering feel, in my opinion the Accord Type R wins in that regard. It was better than the DC2 I owned before it, and I've also driven the EP3, S2000, and FN2- including the Mugen version (which the Honda sales chap was doing a pretty good job of trying to get me to buy!). The ATR is always the most overlooked of the older Type Rs but if I was buying another Type R now it would be the Accord without a doubt. Superb steering feel, a great chassis, and one of the best sounding Type R engines.




Edited by Squirrelofwoe on Saturday 25th June 13:24
I completely agree on this, people haven't a clue what real steering feel is like till they have driven an ATR, proper Type-R with the chassis, sound track and looks.

So... I don't normally comment but been reading these posts and most make me laugh,

One about the EP3 being the best Type-R made (yeah right lol), and few others about EP3 steering feel being great etc

Having been a Honda nut for over 10 years, been in and experienced many of them inc an NSX and S2000, Shall say my piece on this... EP3 was developed for the masses than for the drivers, it has no proper chassis work done, no LSD, and EPS which no matter what is said, gives no feedback and doesn't tell me what the wheels are doing, before people shout how I have driven a bad one, this was back when they were new to few years ago. I could go on about the drawbacks of the EP3 but it will upset a few I bet. It is a quick enough car but it needs ALOT of work to make it a proper Type-R, it was cheap at 16.5K/17K new because it was developed cheap and skimped on many bits that 90s Type-R such as the EK9/DC2 and ATR had and made them great.

FN2, was a rushed car made to compete with the Golf GTI at the time, they didn't allow enough time for it to be developed properly, as with the EP3, no LSD in most of them, no feel in the steering and no double wishbone. It is a good car like the EP3 but neither is what I call something to have fun in out the box, like many here, they need work done to make them just a hint of what they should have been.

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

k-ink

9,070 posts

178 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Good post. Harsh to some, but deal with it frankly. Old school rules when it comes to steering.

Butter Face

30,192 posts

159 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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ShuthanVtec said:
and looks.
The only thing I'll disagree with in your entire post hehe An ATR is an accord, with a spoiler. It's hardly a looker, But then neither is the EP3.

The EP3 was built for the Masses, it made Type R a brand in it's own right, DC2's were obscure in comparison, as was the ATR.

The EP3 though is a great car, any discussion about it's steering feel etc is secondary to the fact that it is still a vary capable drivers car, as per a DC2/ITR/FN2/FK2/EK9/Other Chassis code.

To compare any generation of car to those before or after is always going to be a dissapointment to some and not to others.

And I know you started with Hondas the same way I did with an EJ9, living the 1.4 Dream, hardly the pinnacle of power, chassis or steering. hehe

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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I suppose it's all relative and thus has to be taken in context of the discussion, which is in comparison to the EP3, but the idea that sporting front drive family cars with power assisted steering are what you need to drive to experience real steering feel is quite amusing...

stargazer30

1,582 posts

165 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Vyse said:
A FN2 with a FRSU handles far better than an EP3. With the addition of a better more modern interior and usability its 10x the car an EP3 is.
Very true and its not an expensive mod at all (about £130) and it makes the handling. Mine was night and day difference. Understeer magnet to stuck like its on rails. FN2 #2 is about to get it done soon too.

ShuthanVtec

256 posts

128 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Butter Face said:
The only thing I'll disagree with in your entire post hehe An ATR is an accord, with a spoiler. It's hardly a looker, But then neither is the EP3.

The EP3 was built for the Masses, it made Type R a brand in it's own right, DC2's were obscure in comparison, as was the ATR.

The EP3 though is a great car, any discussion about it's steering feel etc is secondary to the fact that it is still a vary capable drivers car, as per a DC2/ITR/FN2/FK2/EK9/Other Chassis code.

To compare any generation of car to those before or after is always going to be a dissapointment to some and not to others.

And I know you started with Hondas the same way I did with an EJ9, living the 1.4 Dream, hardly the pinnacle of power, chassis or steering. hehe
I wouldn't put it like that "An Accord with a spoiler", I frankly love the looks of the ATR, but I like toned down instead of the huge big winged and vented looks of the FK2.

Each to their own though, I just found the EP3/FN2 an immense disappointment but I know both have a huge fan base due to the cheap and modifying ability of them.

Edited by ShuthanVtec on Monday 27th June 12:58


Edited by ShuthanVtec on Monday 27th June 13:01

billy939

375 posts

143 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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MRobbins1987 said:
I think that the people who rate the fn2 in high regard probably have little experience of the really good hot hatches, yes it's got a big boot and plenty of mod cons but so does a Vauxhall Vectra, it misses the mark in driving terms unless you throw a lot of money in it's direction for modifications (Mugen for example) 205's, 106/ 306 rallye's, DC2's/EK9's, Clio Williams/172/182 cup's would all show the FN2 up in terms of driving experience.
Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.


Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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ShuthanVtec said:
I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.
That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:
Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.
A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

billy939

375 posts

143 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Mr2Mike said:
ShuthanVtec said:
I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.
That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:
Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.
A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".
You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

SaqibCTR

464 posts

133 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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I currently own an EK9 with no power steering (PAS deleted) and the steering feel is another level.

Thinking about an EP3 as a second car. I've never owned one or driven one surprisingly, might be in for a disappointment especially with the steering feel?





Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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SaqibCTR said:
I currently own an EK9 with no power steering (PAS deleted) and the steering feel is another level.

Thinking about an EP3 as a second car. I've never owned one or driven one surprisingly, might be in for a disappointment especially with the steering feel?
And yet an NSX without PAS is bordering on terrible.

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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stargazer30 said:
Very true and its not an expensive mod at all (about £130) and it makes the handling. Mine was night and day difference. Understeer magnet to stuck like its on rails. FN2 #2 is about to get it done soon too.
What is this FRSU thing you speak of?

MyVTECGoesBwaaah

820 posts

141 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Alpinestars said:
stargazer30 said:
Very true and its not an expensive mod at all (about £130) and it makes the handling. Mine was night and day difference. Understeer magnet to stuck like its on rails. FN2 #2 is about to get it done soon too.
What is this FRSU thing you speak of?
Fast Road Setup, fancy forum word for 4 wheel alignment. Usually involves adding some camber and adjusting the toe.

vtecyo

2,122 posts

128 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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My EP3 is good fun to thrash. Day to day it's rubbish. Moreso as it doesn't have air con. Turning circle is dire. It crashes about all over the place, rattles, gutless out of vtec (yo), isn't that comfortable.

In it's favour though, it gets absolute death and only ever requires service items.

It'll be for sale soon if I've sold it to anybody.

DC2 and EK9 are the best hatches for me. Sublime engines, really nerdy, mechanical engineering. Light weight. Fast enough. They're just brilliant.

Edited by vtecyo on Monday 27th June 15:45

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Monday 27th June 2016
quotequote all
MyVTECGoesBwaaah said:
Fast Road Setup, fancy forum word for 4 wheel alignment. Usually involves adding some camber and adjusting the toe.
Ta.

Martin_Hx

3,951 posts

197 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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vtecyo said:
My EP3 is good fun to thrash. Day to day it's rubbish.
Mine has been my daily come sun, rain or snow for the last 9 and a bit years! I must be stupid, bonkers or its not really that bad is it thumbup

On my commute to work i rarely get above 4k rpm but i still enjoy the instant response i get from the gearbox and engine driving

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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SaqibCTR said:
I currently own an EK9 with no power steering (PAS deleted)
There seems to be this delusion in the EK fan club that making the steering much heavier by removing the PAS somehow gives you more feel. Unless you have actually fitted a non-PAS rack, it does the exact opposite. Oh and it's "remove" not "delete". Unless you have some kind of magic eraser that deletes the PAS components from existence?

Martin_Hx said:
Mine has been my daily come sun, rain or snow for the last 9 and a bit years! I must be stupid, bonkers or its not really that bad is it thumbup

On my commute to work i rarely get above 4k rpm but i still enjoy the instant response i get from the gearbox and engine driving
I've had mine for 4 years or so, but it's my only car and I put ~15k miles on it every year (60 mile round trip work commute). It also does runs to the tip full of crap, and it's taken the family on long trips a number of times and I get 32-35mpg from it most of the time which includes a fair bit of VTEC action.

Not the most comfortable or relaxing car to drive, but I doubt I'd have put up with an EK9 or DC2 in that time.

FWIW I replaced the timing chain yesterday, and the improvement in low-mid range torque is very noticeable. The chain was visibly stretched compared to the new one, but clearly not enough to raise a fault code.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 27th June 16:08