RE: Honda Civic Type R generations: EP3 vs. FN2 vs. FK

[Butter Face]

vtecyo said:

My EP3 is good fun to thrash. Day to day it's rubbish. Moreso as it doesn't have air con. Turning circle is dire. It crashes about all over the place, rattles, gutless out of vtec (yo), isn't that comfortable.

Mine is great, ok it's crashy and unrefined, but has aircon

Mine feels much better than a standard one though as has more power, better handling, better brakes and a much nicer (premier) interior.

Basically if you take an EP3 and improve everything, they're great cars

[Baz2000]

This EP3 seems cheap

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/h...

[MRobbins1987]

billy939 said:

Mr2Mike said:

ShuthanVtec said:

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:

Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.

A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course. An lsd wont stop understeer it will just allow you to get on the power earlier without spinning away the power mid corner and it doesn't change the fact that they cant cope with anything but smooth tarmac. All the cars you listed are regarded as fun and competent cars the fn2 isn't which is a shame as the engine and gearbox are superb.

[vtecyo]

MRobbins1987 said:

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course.

https://youtu.be/tb2Ct3yyB4g

Edited by vtecyo on Monday 27th June 16:43

[MRobbins1987]

Nanook said:

MRobbins1987 said:

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road

Does it really? Or is it just that you drive it faster because it's less stiff?

If you gave me both of those cars, pointed me at pretty much any sort of paved surface, and told me to go for it, throw mechanical sympathy out the window, I'm pretty sure the faster car would not be the diesel soft roader.

Seriously, who drives without mechanical sympathy anyway? Unless it's your holiday hire car. My e92 on 19 inch runflats deals with the same roads I used to drive in the fn2 with far more composure, it's far from perfect and tramlines a little but it still fill's you with a confidence that the fn2 was missing, and we all know how shocking runflats are.

My 205 gti whilst stiff never lost its composure on your typical b road either and would cover ground in a more enjoyable fashion than any of my previous car's, partly because the steering referred some real feedback from the road, it wasn't overwheeled, but most importantly its suspension could deal with everything a b road could throw at it.

[billy939]

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

Mr2Mike said:

ShuthanVtec said:

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:

Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.

A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course. An lsd wont stop understeer it will just allow you to get on the power earlier without spinning away the power mid corner and it doesn't change the fact that they cant cope with anything but smooth tarmac. All the cars you listed are regarded as fun and competent cars the fn2 isn't which is a shame as the engine and gearbox are superb.

I'm sorry but that's just a silly statement. The FN2 on good tyres does not spin up when ever you put power on coming through a corner, it's a 200hp hot hatch, the tyres will cope with even the most aggressive driving. Unless you're just stamping on the right pedal then hoping it will pull itself round I can't understand your point.
My point was that yes they are all regarded as fun, but the FN2 is more fun than a lot of them except perhaps the 106 Gti but that is in a class below performance wise.

[MRobbins1987]

billy939 said:

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

Mr2Mike said:

ShuthanVtec said:

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:

Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.

A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course. An lsd wont stop understeer it will just allow you to get on the power earlier without spinning away the power mid corner and it doesn't change the fact that they cant cope with anything but smooth tarmac. All the cars you listed are regarded as fun and competent cars the fn2 isn't which is a shame as the engine and gearbox are superb.

I'm sorry but that's just a silly statement. The FN2 on good tyres does not spin up when ever you put power on coming through a corner, it's a 200hp hot hatch, the tyres will cope with even the most aggressive driving. Unless you're just stamping on the right pedal then hoping it will pull itself round I can't understand your point.
My point was that yes they are all regarded as fun, but the FN2 is more fun than a lot of them except perhaps the 106 Gti but that is in a class below performance wise.

It's not a silly statement, the fn2 pushes wide and spins up the inside wheel when applying throttle on the exit of corners, it's interesting that most reviews agree with my sentiments but the fn2 fanboys don't, it was a missed opportunity by Honda, they put a great engine/transmission in an attractive package but ruined the car by giving it a rubish chassis.

No doubt it can be made good if you spend a small fortune on modifications but I would argue that all the cars you listed are far more fun out of the factory.

[stargazer30]

MyVTECGoesBwaaah said:

Alpinestars said:

stargazer30 said:

Very true and its not an expensive mod at all (about £130) and it makes the handling. Mine was night and day difference. Understeer magnet to stuck like its on rails. FN2 #2 is about to get it done soon too.

What is this FRSU thing you speak of?

Fast Road Setup, fancy forum word for 4 wheel alignment. Usually involves adding some camber and adjusting the toe.

The owners found many FN2's had rather crap geo out the factory, which caused understeer. I think half of the top gear slating was due to the test car being a bad geo one, rather than the blame being on the solid rear suspension. On my first FN2 it was pure comedy, I was sure it was broken! My current one is a fair bit better but still not up to scratch even with 4 x new name brand tyres.

Edited by stargazer30 on Tuesday 28th June 08:20

[stargazer30]

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

Mr2Mike said:

ShuthanVtec said:

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:

Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.

A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course. An lsd wont stop understeer it will just allow you to get on the power earlier without spinning away the power mid corner and it doesn't change the fact that they cant cope with anything but smooth tarmac. All the cars you listed are regarded as fun and competent cars the fn2 isn't which is a shame as the engine and gearbox are superb.

I'm sorry but that's just a silly statement. The FN2 on good tyres does not spin up when ever you put power on coming through a corner, it's a 200hp hot hatch, the tyres will cope with even the most aggressive driving. Unless you're just stamping on the right pedal then hoping it will pull itself round I can't understand your point.
My point was that yes they are all regarded as fun, but the FN2 is more fun than a lot of them except perhaps the 106 Gti but that is in a class below performance wise.

It's not a silly statement, the fn2 pushes wide and spins up the inside wheel when applying throttle on the exit of corners, it's interesting that most reviews agree with my sentiments but the fn2 fanboys don't, it was a missed opportunity by Honda, they put a great engine/transmission in an attractive package but ruined the car by giving it a rubish chassis.

No doubt it can be made good if you spend a small fortune on modifications but I would argue that all the cars you listed are far more fun out of the factory.

Erm I don't think so. I drive an FN2 and I drive wifeys Qashqai. I agree the QQ suspension is much nicer on bumpy b-roads, but getting around one faster? no way, I'd put it on its roof if I tried.

[MRobbins1987]

stargazer30 said:

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

Mr2Mike said:

ShuthanVtec said:

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:

Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.

A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course. An lsd wont stop understeer it will just allow you to get on the power earlier without spinning away the power mid corner and it doesn't change the fact that they cant cope with anything but smooth tarmac. All the cars you listed are regarded as fun and competent cars the fn2 isn't which is a shame as the engine and gearbox are superb.

I'm sorry but that's just a silly statement. The FN2 on good tyres does not spin up when ever you put power on coming through a corner, it's a 200hp hot hatch, the tyres will cope with even the most aggressive driving. Unless you're just stamping on the right pedal then hoping it will pull itself round I can't understand your point.
My point was that yes they are all regarded as fun, but the FN2 is more fun than a lot of them except perhaps the 106 Gti but that is in a class below performance wise.

It's not a silly statement, the fn2 pushes wide and spins up the inside wheel when applying throttle on the exit of corners, it's interesting that most reviews agree with my sentiments but the fn2 fanboys don't, it was a missed opportunity by Honda, they put a great engine/transmission in an attractive package but ruined the car by giving it a rubish chassis.

No doubt it can be made good if you spend a small fortune on modifications but I would argue that all the cars you listed are far more fun out of the factory.

Erm I don't think so. I drive an FN2 and I drive wifeys Qashqai. I agree the QQ suspension is much nicer on bumpy b-roads, but getting around one faster? no way, I'd put it on its roof if I tried.

You would be surprised, were talking polo joe gti levels of composure in the quashqai, much underrated.

[MyVTECGoesBwaaah]

stargazer30 said:

MyVTECGoesBwaaah said:

Alpinestars said:

stargazer30 said:

Very true and its not an expensive mod at all (about £130) and it makes the handling. Mine was night and day difference. Understeer magnet to stuck like its on rails. FN2 #2 is about to get it done soon too.

What is this FRSU thing you speak of?

Fast Road Setup, fancy forum word for 4 wheel alignment. Usually involves adding some camber and adjusting the toe.

The owners found many FN2's had rather crap geo out the factory, which caused understeer. I think half of the top gear slating was due to the test car being a bad geo one, rather than the blame being on the solid rear suspension. On my first FN2 it was pure comedy, I was sure it was broken! My current one is a fair bit better but still not up to scratch even with 4 x new name brand tyres.

Edited by stargazer30 on Tuesday 28th June 08:20

Same thing with the EP3s as well, not sure how far out mine was on standard but feels so much better now it is all right.

[Butter Face]

Having a FRSU on mine made the world of difference, the handling is much better. I need better tyres though, Toyo T1-R are great in the dry but shocking in the wet.

[krismccloy]

My OEM FN2 was a much more competent car on 95% of roads than my wallowing '06 EP3.

I also feel like an LSD would have more benefit on my EP3, I am one of the few who enjoyed the stiffness of the FN2, Okay not so much on the trip to and from work I'll admit, But It felt like it had such good rigidity an body control out of the box.

I guess I should rid myself of both and buy a 1.5DCi Renault Nissan sub utilty thing as I like going fast on B roads.

Disclaimer: I should have never have sold my DC2.

Edited by krismccloy on Tuesday 28th June 10:10

[SaqibCTR]

Mr2Mike said:

SaqibCTR said:

I currently own an EK9 with no power steering (PAS deleted)

There seems to be this delusion in the EK fan club that making the steering much heavier by removing the PAS somehow gives you more feel. Unless you have actually fitted a non-PAS rack, it does the exact opposite. Oh and it's "remove" not "delete". Unless you have some kind of magic eraser that deletes the PAS components from existence?

Martin_Hx said:

Mine has been my daily come sun, rain or snow for the last 9 and a bit years! I must be stupid, bonkers or its not really that bad is it

On my commute to work i rarely get above 4k rpm but i still enjoy the instant response i get from the gearbox and engine

I've had mine for 4 years or so, but it's my only car and I put ~15k miles on it every year (60 mile round trip work commute). It also does runs to the tip full of crap, and it's taken the family on long trips a number of times and I get 32-35mpg from it most of the time which includes a fair bit of VTEC action.

Not the most comfortable or relaxing car to drive, but I doubt I'd have put up with an EK9 or DC2 in that time.

FWIW I replaced the timing chain yesterday, and the improvement in low-mid range torque is very noticeable. The chain was visibly stretched compared to the new one, but clearly not enough to raise a fault code.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 27th June 16:08

Well removing the PAS did give me more feel.

The rack was stripped, converted to a non-PAS rack (as per the EK9s that didn't have power steering specced), greased and re-assembled.

PAS components including the pump, reservoir, lines etc were all gutted. PAS delete it was.

[Mr2Mike]

SaqibCTR said:

Well removing the PAS did give me more feel.

The rack was stripped, converted to a non-PAS rack (as per the EK9s that didn't have power steering specced), greased and re-assembled.

How did you "convert" the 8 tooth pinion to a 7 tooth pinion? How did you prevent the excess movement that the quill shaft introduces?

Making steering heavy does not improve feel.

SaqibCTR said:

PAS components including the pump, reservoir, lines etc were all gutted. PAS delete it was.

So all the parts you removed have magically vanished from existence? You delete a file on your computer and you can even delete options when buying a new car, but you remove parts from your car.

[billy939]

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

Mr2Mike said:

ShuthanVtec said:

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:

Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.

A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course. An lsd wont stop understeer it will just allow you to get on the power earlier without spinning away the power mid corner and it doesn't change the fact that they cant cope with anything but smooth tarmac. All the cars you listed are regarded as fun and competent cars the fn2 isn't which is a shame as the engine and gearbox are superb.

I'm sorry but that's just a silly statement. The FN2 on good tyres does not spin up when ever you put power on coming through a corner, it's a 200hp hot hatch, the tyres will cope with even the most aggressive driving. Unless you're just stamping on the right pedal then hoping it will pull itself round I can't understand your point.
My point was that yes they are all regarded as fun, but the FN2 is more fun than a lot of them except perhaps the 106 Gti but that is in a class below performance wise.

It's not a silly statement, the fn2 pushes wide and spins up the inside wheel when applying throttle on the exit of corners, it's interesting that most reviews agree with my sentiments but the fn2 fanboys don't, it was a missed opportunity by Honda, they put a great engine/transmission in an attractive package but ruined the car by giving it a rubish chassis.

No doubt it can be made good if you spend a small fortune on modifications but I would argue that all the cars you listed are far more fun out of the factory.

Top Gear voted it as the hot hatch of 2007 beating the other offerings from Ford/Vauxhall/Renault etc and the Stig apparently loved it. I think Martin Rowe also commented on how good the handling was on track. It's hardly just FN2 fanboys. Calling an Ep3 far more fun in standard form, from someone who has done thousands of miles in both, is simply not true. The FN2 does handle differently it's not quite as nimble and does carry more weight but it has lots more grip than the EP3 and is much easier to control once the back does start to move.
In the same way people rave about the Clio 172/182, I was not hugely impressed with it, the seating position for me always felt way too high and with the massive steering wheel it felt like you were driving a bus. Of course they do handle well but I thought the Clio 197 was a big step forward.
Everyone will have varied opinions on hot hatches but as someone who has owned a fair few and driven a few more, I can't agree that the FN2 is at the back of the queue when it comes to fun. You ever driven a Corolla T Sport?!

[MRobbins1987]

billy939 said:

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

MRobbins1987 said:

billy939 said:

Mr2Mike said:

ShuthanVtec said:

I know CTR owners of EP3 and FN2 will start debating on my comments, frankly couldn't care, its my opinion on having spent time in them.

That's fine, it's a public forum and everyone posts their opinions. Even when they are wrong.

billy939 said:

Yeah sorry but you're wrong on that one.

I've owned a 182, 106 Gti and 2x Ep3's, Puma 1.7 and have driven a 306 Gti-6. All are excellent handling cars and the FN2 with good tyres and an LSD is a quicker car down a B road. And more engaging than most of them.
The 106 Gti would beat it for fun but would struggle with grip in comparison.

A great driving experience is not the same thing as "Quicker down a B road".

You may have missed the bit in bold then the line underneath.

My wife's 1.5dci quashqai covers ground at a faster pace than the fn2 over a broken b road and has no worse steering feel, it's complient and rides the bumps, potholes and camber changes without skipping and being thrown off course. An lsd wont stop understeer it will just allow you to get on the power earlier without spinning away the power mid corner and it doesn't change the fact that they cant cope with anything but smooth tarmac. All the cars you listed are regarded as fun and competent cars the fn2 isn't which is a shame as the engine and gearbox are superb.

I'm sorry but that's just a silly statement. The FN2 on good tyres does not spin up when ever you put power on coming through a corner, it's a 200hp hot hatch, the tyres will cope with even the most aggressive driving. Unless you're just stamping on the right pedal then hoping it will pull itself round I can't understand your point.
My point was that yes they are all regarded as fun, but the FN2 is more fun than a lot of them except perhaps the 106 Gti but that is in a class below performance wise.

It's not a silly statement, the fn2 pushes wide and spins up the inside wheel when applying throttle on the exit of corners, it's interesting that most reviews agree with my sentiments but the fn2 fanboys don't, it was a missed opportunity by Honda, they put a great engine/transmission in an attractive package but ruined the car by giving it a rubish chassis.

No doubt it can be made good if you spend a small fortune on modifications but I would argue that all the cars you listed are far more fun out of the factory.

Top Gear voted it as the hot hatch of 2007 beating the other offerings from Ford/Vauxhall/Renault etc and the Stig apparently loved it. I think Martin Rowe also commented on how good the handling was on track. It's hardly just FN2 fanboys. Calling an Ep3 far more fun in standard form, from someone who has done thousands of miles in both, is simply not true. The FN2 does handle differently it's not quite as nimble and does carry more weight but it has lots more grip than the EP3 and is much easier to control once the back does start to move.
In the same way people rave about the Clio 172/182, I was not hugely impressed with it, the seating position for me always felt way too high and with the massive steering wheel it felt like you were driving a bus. Of course they do handle well but I thought the Clio 197 was a big step forward.
Everyone will have varied opinions on hot hatches but as someone who has owned a fair few and driven a few more, I can't agree that the FN2 is at the back of the queue when it comes to fun. You ever driven a Corolla T Sport?!

It's not that it's the worst hot hatch ever, far from it, I've spent time in a 206 gti and that was woeful, but it can't match the ep3 for fun (every group test on the pair suggest the same, they must all be wrong) and despite the fact that im not a fan of the new type r it's a far more serious package than it's older siblings. The fn2 is the worst honda to wear the type r badge and was disappointing in the chassis department in my opinion (and many others), it rightly finishes bottom of this test.

[Sa Calobra]

Late to the topic...

For me 50% of the car experience is steering feel.

EP3 should be shot for that.

Nothing more needs to be said on the matter.

[otolith]

Sa Calobra said:

Late to the topic...

For me 50% of the car experience is steering feel.

EP3 should be shot for that.

Nothing more needs to be said on the matter.

The 306XSi I had before it had much better steering feel, but after owning it for a few weeks it stopped bothering me.

[anonymous-user]

I can almost smell the Lynx spray coming through my screen...