RE: Honda Civic Type R generations: EP3 vs. FN2 vs. FK
Discussion
It'd be interesting to see a test between all the Jdm spec cars from the ek9 onwards.
With good tyres an ek9 has a similar 0-60 time to the fk2.
Be nice to see the old civic keeping up which I reckon it would have a very good go at.
Edit: throw a civic eg SiR in there for the fun of it too.
With good tyres an ek9 has a similar 0-60 time to the fk2.
Be nice to see the old civic keeping up which I reckon it would have a very good go at.
Edit: throw a civic eg SiR in there for the fun of it too.
Edited by ChrisDogDiggety on Thursday 23 June 17:20
I have the JDM EP3 I posted earlier and the other half has an FD2.
The FD2 is 'better' and faster, BUT the EP3 is more fun and more chuckable on tighter roads. The electric steering really is not that bad - I get on with it just fine.
The FD2 replaced a DC5 Integra that we had for 8 years. I honestly prefer the JDM EP3 Civic over the DC5 Integra.
Our FD2 has the Koni rear shocks and the ride is no harsher than the Integra.
The FD2 is 'better' and faster, BUT the EP3 is more fun and more chuckable on tighter roads. The electric steering really is not that bad - I get on with it just fine.
The FD2 replaced a DC5 Integra that we had for 8 years. I honestly prefer the JDM EP3 Civic over the DC5 Integra.
Our FD2 has the Koni rear shocks and the ride is no harsher than the Integra.
mp3manager said:
Then some large blobby family cars with ever more vague steering. Lots of BHP but no real driver fun in the corners, which is the entire point. If steering feel is of no concern to you and BHP is everything, you may as well buy a turbo diesel rep mobile. How some of these cars have any sort of following is well beyond me. I can only imagine the EP3 fans have never driven anything with half decent steering in their lives. Nice engine in a mediocre car frankly. Sorry if that offends but it needed stating.
Drive a 106 GTI, or EK9, find some corners, then report back...
k-ink said:
mp3manager said:
Then some large blobby family cars with ever more vague steering. Lots of BHP but no real driver fun in the corners, which is the entire point. If steering feel is of no concern to you and BHP is everything, you may as well buy a turbo diesel rep mobile. How some of these cars have any sort of following is well beyond me. I can only imagine the EP3 fans have never driven anything with half decent steering in their lives. Nice engine in a mediocre car frankly. Sorry if that offends but it needed stating.
Drive a 106 GTI, or EK9, find some corners, then report back...
I've had 14 Hondas (mostly Civics but 1 Prelude) and driven EK9, FN2,FD2 and EP3 models and I wouldn't say any of them are bad cars, or large blobby cars. Most cars have got bigger throughout their lives, the new FK2 is hardly a bad car becuase it's bigger than an EK9.
The EK9 is a great car, the older B16 is not as good of an all rounder as the K20, it feels very analogue and old in comparison. The sterring is more weighty and gives more 'feel' but I still feel the overall package of the EP3 is better.
I need a go in an FK2 really.
Butter Face said:
No offense taken, everyone has their own thoughts on the steering. To me it's just one part of the puzzle.
I've had 14 Hondas (mostly Civics but 1 Prelude) and driven EK9, FN2,FD2 and EP3 models and I wouldn't say any of them are bad cars, or large blobby cars. Most cars have got bigger throughout their lives, the new FK2 is hardly a bad car becuase it's bigger than an EK9.
The EK9 is a great car, the older B16 is not as good of an all rounder as the K20, it feels very analogue and old in comparison. The sterring is more weighty and gives more 'feel' but I still feel the overall package of the EP3 is better.
I need a go in an FK2 really.
The versatility of the K20 is indeed better and running clockwise is a far improved designed IMO, But I guess it's not much for a fair comparison when comparing an 80's designed N/A 1.6 with a 00's 2.0 N/A, Honda definitely missed a trick by cost cutting and leaving the old double front wishbone setup and hydaulic EPAS behind, In the EK9 & DC2 you'd get a lovely progressive helping of up to an around 3 degrees of negative camber naturally when cornering whereas in the EP3 your stuck with borderline positive camber no matter how hard you cornered/loaded the suspension (Stock vs. Stock). The older chassis felt like they were on rails when comparing to a stock EP chassis IMO and you seemed to sit in the older cars than on them, similar to a DC5 too. I really do enjoy my EP3 however, It still feel's light on it's feet, And having a facelift the steering has been improved a bit since the release model. The prefacelift cars felt like you could continue turning the wheel with one finger no matter how tight the bend and how quickly you entered it, Overly assisted and numb.I've had 14 Hondas (mostly Civics but 1 Prelude) and driven EK9, FN2,FD2 and EP3 models and I wouldn't say any of them are bad cars, or large blobby cars. Most cars have got bigger throughout their lives, the new FK2 is hardly a bad car becuase it's bigger than an EK9.
The EK9 is a great car, the older B16 is not as good of an all rounder as the K20, it feels very analogue and old in comparison. The sterring is more weighty and gives more 'feel' but I still feel the overall package of the EP3 is better.
I need a go in an FK2 really.
Edited by krismccloy on Friday 24th June 10:18
Butter Face said:
No offense taken, everyone has their own thoughts on the steering. To me it's just one part of the puzzle.
I've had 14 Hondas (mostly Civics but 1 Prelude) and driven EK9, FN2,FD2 and EP3 models and I wouldn't say any of them are bad cars, or large blobby cars. Most cars have got bigger throughout their lives, the new FK2 is hardly a bad car becuase it's bigger than an EK9.
The EK9 is a great car, the older B16 is not as good of an all rounder as the K20, it feels very analogue and old in comparison. The sterring is more weighty and gives more 'feel' but I still feel the overall package of the EP3 is better.
I need a go in an FK2 really.
I had just been driving a DC2 and went for a drive in an EP3. The difference was night and day. The DC2 felt as sharp as a TCR slot car (Scalectrix for the older guys). The blobby EP3 felt like an MPV. I've had 14 Hondas (mostly Civics but 1 Prelude) and driven EK9, FN2,FD2 and EP3 models and I wouldn't say any of them are bad cars, or large blobby cars. Most cars have got bigger throughout their lives, the new FK2 is hardly a bad car becuase it's bigger than an EK9.
The EK9 is a great car, the older B16 is not as good of an all rounder as the K20, it feels very analogue and old in comparison. The sterring is more weighty and gives more 'feel' but I still feel the overall package of the EP3 is better.
I need a go in an FK2 really.
k-ink said:
I can only imagine the EP3 fans have never driven anything with half decent steering in their lives.
I'd be the last to suggest the EP3 steering is anything better than adequate, but if it is as bad as you seem to think then I can only imagine you drove one with a bad rack (of which there are plenty).Mr2Mike said:
k-ink said:
I can only imagine the EP3 fans have never driven anything with half decent steering in their lives.
I'd be the last to suggest the EP3 steering is anything better than adequate, but if it is as bad as you seem to think then I can only imagine you drove one with a bad rack (of which there are plenty).To me true hot hatches with exceptional steering feel are dead on the whole. Rare exceptions may creep though - if so, I'll take your word on that. Instead, in general we have a daft power war in family cars with all the kit. Others will no doubt disagree but that is my view. If I was only interested in the power war I'd get a tuned up Evo and be done with it.
I didn't like the steering, although it's one of those things that you get used to if you spend time with the car. I was comparing it with series of Peugeots I owned before it. I did like the engine, the gearbox and the handling - pointy front end, throttle sensitive rear. I also liked the driving position (including the gear lever placement) and the massive practicality.
k-ink said:
Re: EP3... I drove a pretty new one at the time as I was looking to buy one. It was no surprise to me afterwards to see why the DC2 enjoys its reputation as being up there with the all time great hot hatches, while the EP3 does not. As far as I can tell people just wanted "that engine" in a cheap package and did not care about the driving.
To me true hot hatches with exceptional steering feel are dead on the whole. Rare exceptions may creep though - if so, I'll take your word on that. Instead, in general we have a daft power war in family cars with all the kit. Others will no doubt disagree but that is my view. If I was only interested in the power war I'd get a tuned up Evo and be done with it.
Hear hear. The power war and electronics have spoilt a good drive and steer. There really are very few new cars that are genuinely good drivers' cars in my view. To me true hot hatches with exceptional steering feel are dead on the whole. Rare exceptions may creep though - if so, I'll take your word on that. Instead, in general we have a daft power war in family cars with all the kit. Others will no doubt disagree but that is my view. If I was only interested in the power war I'd get a tuned up Evo and be done with it.
+1 with this statement ... the modern car has got big, overweight and offers little. disguised by big bhp and numbers and you are left with cars that offer little in terms of handling, drive etc.
watched the autotrader group test with the new CTR and they bemoaned that it was too old school in how you had to drive it ... but that liefeless feel seems to be what people want nowadays.
personally i want my cars to offer me enjoyment behind the wheel and NOT just be functional
back to topic I found the FN2 do be a decent car in all honesty and agree with previous posts that it provided a lot of practicality in the package which suited a lot of people. I am not a fan of the EP3 steering system at all.
watched the autotrader group test with the new CTR and they bemoaned that it was too old school in how you had to drive it ... but that liefeless feel seems to be what people want nowadays.
personally i want my cars to offer me enjoyment behind the wheel and NOT just be functional
back to topic I found the FN2 do be a decent car in all honesty and agree with previous posts that it provided a lot of practicality in the package which suited a lot of people. I am not a fan of the EP3 steering system at all.
Alpinestars said:
Hear hear. The power war and electronics have spoilt a good drive and steer. There really are very few new cars that are genuinely good drivers' cars in my view.
I always find myself bemused by everyone slating the FN2.
I have one myself after spending about 6 months driving different hot hatches including the EP3 Type R, the Focus ST, the Leon Cupra R and Golf GTi trying to decide which one to plump for. I went the FN2 (GT spec with the GP Pack in Alabaster Silver).
Sure the EP3 might be more exciting on a track, but the steering was numb and lifeless, the engine extremely manic for road driving, the cabin a truly horrible place to be, not especially good looking and it wasn't especially practical and easy to live with on a day to day level.
The FN2 had much better steering, greater refinement, a HUGELY improved cabin, so much space, the clever extra under floor boot, the engine was more relaxed in day to day situations and still has that manic top end. In short, if you are buying a car to drive on ordinary roads, every day and live with every day I would not recommend the EP3 over the FN2. As a pure Track Tool, sure go for the EP3. My 2 cents as an FN2 owner who chose one over the EP3.
I have one myself after spending about 6 months driving different hot hatches including the EP3 Type R, the Focus ST, the Leon Cupra R and Golf GTi trying to decide which one to plump for. I went the FN2 (GT spec with the GP Pack in Alabaster Silver).
Sure the EP3 might be more exciting on a track, but the steering was numb and lifeless, the engine extremely manic for road driving, the cabin a truly horrible place to be, not especially good looking and it wasn't especially practical and easy to live with on a day to day level.
The FN2 had much better steering, greater refinement, a HUGELY improved cabin, so much space, the clever extra under floor boot, the engine was more relaxed in day to day situations and still has that manic top end. In short, if you are buying a car to drive on ordinary roads, every day and live with every day I would not recommend the EP3 over the FN2. As a pure Track Tool, sure go for the EP3. My 2 cents as an FN2 owner who chose one over the EP3.
nobby - 
That picture really shows the "progress" through time. One compact hot hatch slammed to the tarmac, with pin sharp steering... last of the breed.
Then some large blobby family cars with ever more vague steering. Lots of BHP but no real driver fun in the corners, which is the entire point. If steering feel is of no concern to you and BHP is everything, you may as well buy a turbo diesel rep mobile. How some of these cars have any sort of following is well beyond me. I can only imagine the EP3 fans have never driven anything with half decent steering in their lives. Nice engine in a mediocre car frankly. Sorry if that offends but it needed stating.
Drive a 106 GTI, or EK9, find some corners, then report back...You've not driven an FD2, have you?!?
I've owned 2x DC2s and 1x FD2, and while if pressed I'd take a nice DC2 over an FD2, as an all-round ownership proposition the FD2 delivers 95% of the DC2's thrills (inc. sharper initial turn-in and as much throttle-adjustability!), while being far more flexible in the mid-range and noticeably quicker overall. And a lot more practical, which for some of us is important.
k-ink said:
mp3manager said:
Then some large blobby family cars with ever more vague steering. Lots of BHP but no real driver fun in the corners, which is the entire point. If steering feel is of no concern to you and BHP is everything, you may as well buy a turbo diesel rep mobile. How some of these cars have any sort of following is well beyond me. I can only imagine the EP3 fans have never driven anything with half decent steering in their lives. Nice engine in a mediocre car frankly. Sorry if that offends but it needed stating.
Drive a 106 GTI, or EK9, find some corners, then report back...
I've owned 2x DC2s and 1x FD2, and while if pressed I'd take a nice DC2 over an FD2, as an all-round ownership proposition the FD2 delivers 95% of the DC2's thrills (inc. sharper initial turn-in and as much throttle-adjustability!), while being far more flexible in the mid-range and noticeably quicker overall. And a lot more practical, which for some of us is important.
No I've not driven an FD2. If it is that good I'll take your word on that. I had been in an EK9, DC2, then tried the modern versions of EP3 and S2000. The S2000 I liked a lot, although DAMN LOUD, and I hated the EP3. I didn't even bother with anything newer from Honda after that. Especially as the suspension kept getting worse on paper (losing IRS for example) on the later Civics.
FD2 feels like a grown-up DC5, except a little better / little more hardcore. Steering is typical modern but doesn't have the nasty artifical 'weight' of the DC5. It DOES have IRS and a very effective ATB-style diff, so handling is only bettered by the old-timers that you and I love...and even there there's a modern stiff/responsive vibe the FD2 brings to the party that makes the DC2/EK9 feel slow-witted.
(To be fair, it makes most things this side of a 458 or a Caterham feel slow-witted)
I get where you're coming from - nothing modern has the steering feel / natural feedback of the 90s-era cars...but in some ways it was ever thus - the E30 M3 hasn't been bettered by its' successors for feedback, and going further back still the original Elan is arguably top-of-the-tree there and probably always will be.
(To be fair, it makes most things this side of a 458 or a Caterham feel slow-witted)
I get where you're coming from - nothing modern has the steering feel / natural feedback of the 90s-era cars...but in some ways it was ever thus - the E30 M3 hasn't been bettered by its' successors for feedback, and going further back still the original Elan is arguably top-of-the-tree there and probably always will be.
Seeing how much I like the EP3 and FN2, I'd love to experience the extreme ends of the scale, an EK9 and FD2.
The closest to an EK9 I've been in (passenger) is an Import EG Civic SIR at circa 170 bhp, stripped with suspension and engine mods. That was great.
Problem for me is the age and practicality of an EK9. The FN2 I have is great for family duties, has a more flexible engine and is newer so less likely to have age related issues. It's a better everyday car, although clearly less fun on B roads or tracks. A compromise I'm wiling to take.
Very useable and still has enough of the Type R elements for the road. The right mods will enhance it enough for me anyway, including suspension and some bolt ons.
The FD2 is just too expensive for me, and won't fit in the garage.
The closest to an EK9 I've been in (passenger) is an Import EG Civic SIR at circa 170 bhp, stripped with suspension and engine mods. That was great.
Problem for me is the age and practicality of an EK9. The FN2 I have is great for family duties, has a more flexible engine and is newer so less likely to have age related issues. It's a better everyday car, although clearly less fun on B roads or tracks. A compromise I'm wiling to take.
Very useable and still has enough of the Type R elements for the road. The right mods will enhance it enough for me anyway, including suspension and some bolt ons.
The FD2 is just too expensive for me, and won't fit in the garage.
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