RE: Honda Civic Type R generations: EP3 vs. FN2 vs. FK

[Leejay-B]

ChrisDogDiggety said:

It'd be interesting to see a test between all the Jdm spec cars from the ek9 onwards.

With good tyres an ek9 has a similar 0-60 time to the fk2.

Be nice to see the old civic keeping up which I reckon it would have a very good go at.

Edit: throw a civic eg SiR in there for the fun of it too.

Edited by ChrisDogDiggety on Thursday 23 June 17:20

It's been done, albeit a long time ago. I have an old Best Motoring DVD, called Vtec Club. Try and see them on youtube if you can.

I think the true EK9 0-60 is the same range as naturally aspirated B18 and K20 engined cars in the mid 6 second area. It loses out a little after that.

From memory as an example, the EK9 has a similar 0-60 to the DC2, but just loses out slightly on both 1/4 miles and on track times. Both EK9 and DC2 were bettered on track by next generation JDM DC5 and EP3, which in turn are beaten by FD2.

This was on small Tsukuba track. The n/a K20 engine is one of the big reasons, and would make more difference on longer and more open tracks.

I assume the FK will comfortably beat all generations by a fair margin, both in a straight line and track times.

Not that all of this matters, just don't think the EK9 will keep up with an FK! I'd rather drive an EK9 though. Big turbo hatches will be around for a while yet.

Edit - talking car vs car, not accounting for different drivers. I'm sure someone going mad in an EK9 would keep up with me in an FK in certain situations other than the higher speed straight bits.

Edited by Leejay-B on Friday 24th June 22:21

[Vyse]

A FN2 with a FRSU handles far better than an EP3. With the addition of a better more modern interior and usability its 10x the car an EP3 is.

[k-ink]

After reading all these comments, then looking back at the photos, I still like the idea of a mint EK9. Yes it may be the slowest, noisiest, most basic offering. I am sure it would be a pain to live with sometimes. But look at it: slammed on the deck, like a kart.

Point it down a wriggly section of Tarmac and you'll forgive the rest in those moments of fun. Basic cars like this are no longer made which is a shame. It makes me want to give hot hatches one last go, before I give up and act my age in something far more sensible. Nothing new and hatch like makes me think like that.

[MRobbins1987]

I think that the people who rate the fn2 in high regard probably have little experience of the really good hot hatches, yes it's got a big boot and plenty of mod cons but so does a Vauxhall Vectra, it misses the mark in driving terms unless you throw a lot of money in it's direction for modifications (Mugen for example) 205's, 106/ 306 rallye's, DC2's/EK9's, Clio Williams/172/182 cup's would all show the FN2 up in terms of driving experience.

[Squirrelofwoe]

Leejay-B said:

It's been done, albeit a long time ago. I have an old Best Motoring DVD, called Vtec Club. Try and see them on youtube if you can.

I think the true EK9 0-60 is the same range as naturally aspirated B18 and K20 engined cars in the mid 6 second area. It loses out a little after that.

From memory as an example, the EK9 has a similar 0-60 to the DC2, but just loses out slightly on both 1/4 miles and on track times. Both EK9 and DC2 were bettered on track by next generation JDM DC5 and EP3, which in turn are beaten by FD2.

This was on small Tsukuba track. The n/a K20 engine is one of the big reasons, and would make more difference on longer and more open tracks.

I assume the FK will comfortably beat all generations by a fair margin, both in a straight line and track times.

Not that all of this matters, just don't think the EK9 will keep up with an FK! I'd rather drive an EK9 though. Big turbo hatches will be around for a while yet.

Edit - talking car vs car, not accounting for different drivers. I'm sure someone going mad in an EK9 would keep up with me in an FK in certain situations other than the higher speed straight bits.

I guess that's one of the reasons why so many hardcore track DC2s end up with K20 transplants. Personally I preferred the B18c in my DC2 but there is no doubt the K20 is a phenomenal engine.

For what it's worth regarding the steering feel, in my opinion the Accord Type R wins in that regard. It was better than the DC2 I owned before it, and I've also driven the EP3, S2000, and FN2- including the Mugen version (which the Honda sales chap was doing a pretty good job of trying to get me to buy!). The ATR is always the most overlooked of the older Type Rs but if I was buying another Type R now it would be the Accord without a doubt. Superb steering feel, a great chassis, and one of the best sounding Type R engines.

Great article though, and I'd love to see one on the JDM civics

Edited by Squirrelofwoe on Saturday 25th June 13:24

[Butter Face]

k-ink said:

After reading all these comments, then looking back at the photos, I still like the idea of a mint EK9. Yes it may be the slowest, noisiest, most basic offering. I am sure it would be a pain to live with sometimes. But look at it: slammed on the deck, like a kart.

Point it down a wriggly section of Tarmac and you'll forgive the rest in those moments of fun. Basic cars like this are no longer made which is a shame. It makes me want to give hot hatches one last go, before I give up and act my age in something far more sensible. Nothing new and hatch like makes me think like that.

The EK9 is a great car, better with a B16C in it though. The B16B is a bit meh and doesn't feel special enough, the B18C is a better engine.

EK9 with a B18C and a decent setup is a great car.

[Leejay-B]

MRobbins1987 said:

I think that the people who rate the fn2 in high regard probably have little experience of the really good hot hatches, yes it's got a big boot and plenty of mod cons but so does a Vauxhall Vectra, it misses the mark in driving terms unless you throw a lot of money in it's direction for modifications (Mugen for example) 205's, 106/ 306 rallye's, DC2's/EK9's, Clio Williams/172/182 cup's would all show the FN2 up in terms of driving experience.

I'm sure some or even many FN2 fans have experienced these sorts of cars.
I agree it's not as good in some areas, but it is bigger and modern so makes it a useable option for more people.
I also like the K20 engine, which for me makes up for it not being as good as a Clio down the twisty lanes, but other people will think that's wrong.

I appreciate we all have different opinions.

Disclaimer - the person writing this likes the GT86 ALOT and even it's engine!

[Mr2Mike]

Butter Face said:

The EK9 is a great car, better with a B16C in it though.

Even better with a K20A in it.

[Butter Face]

Mr2Mike said:

Butter Face said:

The EK9 is a great car, better with a B16C in it though.

Even better with a K20A in it.

I do like the K20 but an EK9 with a B18C is something special and quite old school. The B18 is a cracker but the K20 does feel a lot newer.

[Vyse]

We are comparing Type R's against each other not the FN2 against all the other hatches. You could compare the FN2 against a Radical SR3 but you would be missing the point.

MRobbins1987 said:

I think that the people who rate the fn2 in high regard probably have little experience of the really good hot hatches, yes it's got a big boot and plenty of mod cons but so does a Vauxhall Vectra, it misses the mark in driving terms unless you throw a lot of money in it's direction for modifications (Mugen for example) 205's, 106/ 306 rallye's, DC2's/EK9's, Clio Williams/172/182 cup's would all show the FN2 up in terms of driving experience.

[dotty]

Owned a few EP3's , and a couple of DC5's, but my favourite of all is my current Type R.

[MRobbins1987]

Vyse said:

We are comparing Type R's against each other not the FN2 against all the other hatches. You could compare the FN2 against a Radical SR3 but you would be missing the point.

MRobbins1987 said:

I think that the people who rate the fn2 in high regard probably have little experience of the really good hot hatches, yes it's got a big boot and plenty of mod cons but so does a Vauxhall Vectra, it misses the mark in driving terms unless you throw a lot of money in it's direction for modifications (Mugen for example) 205's, 106/ 306 rallye's, DC2's/EK9's, Clio Williams/172/182 cup's would all show the FN2 up in terms of driving experience.

You need to re read my post, im not comparing the fn2 to the above mentioned cars, it would be unfair on the fn2, im suggesting that those that rate it probably haven't spent time in a good hot hatch and listed a few examples of such.

[Evolved]

Never been a VTEC fan, always seemed a lot of noise and drama for not much reward. Reliable is what I'd label them as, exciting, not so much. Much preferred the other Jap offerings at the time, mainly as they all had Turbos strapped to them so it was less drama for bigger grins.

[dotty]

Evolved said:

Never been a VTEC fan, always seemed a lot of noise and drama for not much reward. Reliable is what I'd label them as, exciting, not so much. Much preferred the other Jap offerings at the time, mainly as they all had Turbos strapped to them so it was less drama for bigger grins.

Ever driven one? genuine enquiry, I had a fling with an Evo 6 but sold it on to come back to Honda.. I know of a few that have done the same.

[Alpinestars]

Evolved said:

Never been a VTEC fan, always seemed a lot of noise and drama for not much reward. Reliable is what I'd label them as, exciting, not so much. Much preferred the other Jap offerings at the time, mainly as they all had Turbos strapped to them so it was less drama for bigger grins.

You need to drive one. Brilliant cars.

[Vyse]

If that's not comparing I don't know what is.

MRobbins1987 said:

Vyse said:

We are comparing Type R's against each other not the FN2 against all the other hatches. You could compare the FN2 against a Radical SR3 but you would be missing the point.

MRobbins1987 said:

I think that the people who rate the fn2 in high regard probably have little experience of the really good hot hatches, yes it's got a big boot and plenty of mod cons but so does a Vauxhall Vectra, it misses the mark in driving terms unless you throw a lot of money in it's direction for modifications (Mugen for example) 205's, 106/ 306 rallye's, DC2's/EK9's, Clio Williams/172/182 cup's would all show the FN2 up in terms of driving experience.

You need to re read my post, im not comparing the fn2 to the above mentioned cars, it would be unfair on the fn2, im suggesting that those that rate it probably haven't spent time in a good hot hatch and listed a few examples of such.

[Butter Face]

Evolved said:

Never been a VTEC fan, always seemed a lot of noise and drama for not much reward. Reliable is what I'd label them as, exciting, not so much. Much preferred the other Jap offerings at the time, mainly as they all had Turbos strapped to them so it was less drama for bigger grins.

Hang on, do you really own an M3 CSL? You know, a high revving NA with variable timing and peak power at 7900rpm that's been superseded by turbo'd engines?

But you don't like VTEC engines?

I don't like M3's anyway, a mapped 335d makes more power and more torque with less drama. Makes more sense to me

[MRobbins1987]

Vyse said:

If that's not comparing I don't know what is.

MRobbins1987 said:

Vyse said:

We are comparing Type R's against each other not the FN2 against all the other hatches. You could compare the FN2 against a Radical SR3 but you would be missing the point.

MRobbins1987 said:

I think that the people who rate the fn2 in high regard probably have little experience of the really good hot hatches, yes it's got a big boot and plenty of mod cons but so does a Vauxhall Vectra, it misses the mark in driving terms unless you throw a lot of money in it's direction for modifications (Mugen for example) 205's, 106/ 306 rallye's, DC2's/EK9's, Clio Williams/172/182 cup's would all show the FN2 up in terms of driving experience.

You need to re read my post, im not comparing the fn2 to the above mentioned cars, it would be unfair on the fn2, im suggesting that those that rate it probably haven't spent time in a good hot hatch and listed a few examples of such.

It's not a comparison it's a fact.

[Vyse]

That wasn't a fact that I was disputing. I was comparing the FN2 and EP3, not the FN2 and other hatches that handle better.

[Evolved]

Butter Face said:

Hang on, do you really own an M3 CSL? You know, a high revving NA with variable timing and peak power at 7900rpm that's been superseded by turbo'd engines?

But you don't like VTEC engines?

I don't like M3's anyway, a mapped 335d makes more power and more torque with less drama. Makes more sense to me

Used to and there's a world of difference between a 2ltr 4pot and a 3.2 6 pot