Motorway gantry 'smart' messages...why wrong so often?

[dcb]

TooMany2cvs said:

...giving you time to go a different route.

You're on the M20, heading from Dover to the Midlands. M1's solid. OK, no problem. You can go the other way round the M25 and take the M40. Or you can take the M11.

So what %-age of the traffic westbound on the M20 is heading for the M1, then ?
I'd guess at 5%, so for the remaining 95% of drivers, the message was useless.
The M25 is like that, because it's a ring road, it's hard to guess folks' destination.
Linear motorways like the M1 or M40, no such problem.

Latest case of idiocy was when I was near M25 J8 westbound and messages posted up about M25 J22, FFS !

Not only is that about 1 hour 20 minutes away and so the problem is likely
to have gone by the time anyone gets there, but how many folks down near Reigate are going to
somewhere near St Albans ?

If 10% of the money that has been wasted in gantry messages got spent on something useful
like more lanes or better motorway lane discipline, I'd be much happier.

[Flooble]

Once the gantry is built, the cost to put up messages is pretty negligible. In fact, the reason for the bonkers messages is largely because next to no money is spent on running them, hence they get left up long past their sell-by date, or put up incorrectly.

When we can spend £10000s for each inch of motorway, you won't get much more road for the cost of running those gantries!

[TooMany2cvs]

dcb said:

So what %-age of the traffic westbound on the M20 is heading for the M1, then ?
I'd guess at 5%

I'd guess a good chunk higher than that.

dcb said:

so for the remaining 95% of drivers, the message was useless.

Oh, well. I'm sure you can cope with seeing information that isn't applicable to you.

dcb said:

If 10% of the money that has been wasted in gantry messages got spent on something useful
like more lanes or better motorway lane discipline, I'd be much happier.

10% of the money "wasted" on messages that you don't find useful to you at that very moment in time might, just perhaps, buy a box of teabags for the traffic womble canteen. Probably not much more.

Edited by TooMany2cvs on Monday 4th July 13:17

[Mr2Mike]

datum77 said:

Why are the signs not used to display messages that should help to improve the driving standards of the sad people who drive as though they are the only people on the road. I'll start with a few suggestions:-

"DON'T HOG THE MIDDLE LANE(S)"
"THE SPEED LIMIT IN UK IS 70MPH"
"DO NOT USE A MOBILE PHONE WHILE DRIVING"
"DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE - EVER"
"DON'T TAKE DRUGS AND DRIVE - EVER"
"USE YOUR LIGHTS DURING BAD WEATHER"
"SEAT BELTS SAVE LIVES - USE THEM"

Most signs already display these kind of completely pointless messages, they don't stop cretins drink driving or updating their Facebook status whilst they drive.

The idea is to use them for useful messages; as someone suggested just displaying the time would be very handy, and they could also show weather conditions that you are heading into (i.e. not just "FOG").

[Chris944]

saaby93 said:

and theyre not allowed to clear the gantry sign until someones been through and checked whatever the problem has cleared. That someone being part of an organisation with little resource to do the checking
One day they'll discover google gives the flow information live for free

This!!!! Dumb, dumb and dumber!

[saaby93]

I'd forgotten this thread

Last week approaching my exit message on gantry usefully says 50 obstruction on slip road 50 blinkety blink

Everyone slows up looking forward to the excitement seeing what it is
Down the slip around roundabout and off first exit nothing
Am I surprised?

Caught sight of the signs going up the other slip 50 lane closed 50 blinkety blink

So it was an obstruction on the entry slip past my exit?

[techguyone]

I don't travel as much as I used to but I find myself doing the Falkirk to Birmingham trip several times a year.

Once you get out of Scotland with their really useful messages like

• Don't play the bagpipes when driving*
• EAT HAGGIS*

etc

On the M6 as this is the bulk of the journey I've always found the gantries to be generally truthful, granted if it's not in a red circle it gets mostly ignored

I see things like 'time to J (x) 30 minutes'

and 'Congestion at junction (x)' which typically gives you multiple opportunities to divert if you wish.

Even the dreaded 'smart' motorway that everyone loves to hate on, has only done good in the Brum area. I can remember seeing Lorries queuing up Southbound from Junction 11 onwards at 5.45 in the morning.

And the wonderful 3 mile traffic jam from J1 M5 to joining the 6 at J8

All gone, because of the hated gantries...

[lvatscorpio]

Hi Guys/Gals

I see I am a couple of years late on this thread but I am hopeful of a reply. First time on this site so please excuse any slips. I am an HGV driver and have been for many years. What really annoys me about these so called smart motorways is there is no rhyme or reason a lot of the time. As several have said, fair enough the reason for limits etc could be miles ahead and you may never reach it before you come off. In the course of my job I am on the road a lot when most sane people are fast asleep. Many many times at 1 2 or 3am I am on 8 or 10 lanes of empty road dodging hedgehogs and tumbleweed when all of a sudden 40! And this stays for miles even into the next county and apart from the odd taxi or a couple more artics there is absolutely NOTHING about! I agree that our motorway network is badly over crowded and solutions need to be found and in prinicipal smart motorways are a good idea. But the longer they are around the worse things get. Often I have seen in the middle of the night as well as during the day 70 70 50 70 40 60 70 ... ??? Occasionally in the last few months I have seen different speeds over different lanes!! 50 50 60 50 does that mean if I drive in lane 3 I can go faster for a few hundred yards??

And what is the lowest speed setting? I have seen several recently at 30 and even a couple at 20!! What next speed humps??! Admittedly in an HGV the national limit of 70 is irrelevant but the constant switching between 40 50 and 60 is very annoying especially late at night when you are trying to maintain a constant speed on a nigh empty motorway. I am probably missing a very salient point somewhere and I am not being deliberately obtuse but I would very much love to know how these limits are set. If they are purely by computer from imbedded sensors then are they simply degrading with age? It just seems that as time goes by there are more and more spurious limits coming up.

Kind regards

Stephen Parler

[Section 8]

That’s some thread resurrection there Sir. I often think some annoying little st is sitting in an office somewhere randomly switching speed limits to annoy me as I was sat doing 40 on the M62 the other day apparently due to pedestrians in the road.

I saw NO pedestrians. Likewise further up a sign telling me of ONCOMING VEHICLE was utterly terrifying but it was all for nothing as there was sod all to warrant it.

[anonymous-user]

Section 8 said:

That’s some thread resurrection there Sir. I often think some annoying little st is sitting in an office somewhere randomly switching speed limits to annoy me as I was sat doing 40 on the M62 the other day apparently due to pedestrians in the road.

I saw NO pedestrians. Likewise further up a sign telling me of ONCOMING VEHICLE was utterly terrifying but it was all for nothing as there was sod all to warrant it.

Three favourites they use to allow speed limits to be lowered:

1) Report of obstruction (there never is any actual obstruction) - 10 miles of this on average
2) Debris on road (there never is any actual debris) - 15 miles of this on average
3) Pedestrians in road (there never are any actual pedestrians) - 20 miles of this on average

Absolute waste of time and money frankly!

[MrGTI6]

Wills2 said:

They're utterly useless.....

Pedestrians in the road slow down!......no there isn't

Incident slow down!...............no there isn't

Animals on the road slow down!...............no there isn't

That was just a selection of the incorrect signs I've witnessed recently on the motorway.

It would be nice if they displayed a message along the lines of "KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING".

Although that assumes that lane-hoggers can actually read, so probably a waste of time.

[saaby93]

MrGTI6 said:

It would be nice if they displayed a message along the lines of "KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING".

they do sometimes post up that message, but it seems that most people must be still in the porcess of overtaking something
They also say Dont Drink and drive ( as if you were)
Keep your distance ( you already are)
Speed kills ( how much speed)

[Digby]

cb1965 said:

Three favourites they use to allow speed limits to be lowered:

1) Report of obstruction (there never is any actual obstruction) - 10 miles of this on average
2) Debris on road (there never is any actual debris) - 15 miles of this on average
3) Pedestrians in road (there never are any actual pedestrians) - 20 miles of this on average

Absolute waste of time and money frankly!

Having seen all the warnings you mention probably fifty+ times since this thread was started, I have to agree that not once have I ever seen any obstructions, debris or peds.

Now, it could be argued that the problem had been sorted before I got to the specific location, but I have even seen the signs light up as I approach and still seen nothing.

[anonymous-user]

Digby said:

cb1965 said:

Three favourites they use to allow speed limits to be lowered:

1) Report of obstruction (there never is any actual obstruction) - 10 miles of this on average
2) Debris on road (there never is any actual debris) - 15 miles of this on average
3) Pedestrians in road (there never are any actual pedestrians) - 20 miles of this on average

Absolute waste of time and money frankly!

Having seen all the warnings you mention probably fifty+ times since this thread was started, I have to agree that not once have I ever seen any obstructions, debris or peds.

Now, it could be argued that the problem had been sorted before I got to the specific location, but I have even seen the signs light up as I approach and still seen nothing.

If I remember rightly you drive for a living and if I find it massively irritating only doing a fraction of the miles you do you must have the patience of a saint. We are supposed to be making travel cleverer and therefore quicker, yet these systems seem to be the opposite in all respects. As ever though there is nothing we can effectively do about it.

[Flumpo]

160 miles on the m1 tonight, Had the joy of, report of pedestrians in the road for 20 miles at 40mph.

And lane closure, workers in road lanes closed to 1 lane. Signs disappear and no sign of any workers, cones or lane closures.

[DukeDickson]

Flumpo said:

160 miles on the m1 tonight, Had the joy of, report of pedestrians in the road for 20 miles at 40mph.

And lane closure, workers in road lanes closed to 1 lane. Signs disappear and no sign of any workers, cones or lane closures.

They seem to be a bit keen in switching that on before any night work actually takes place.

Not messages, but in gantry straight order had nothing, 60, 50, 60, 50, NSL for no apparent reason on the M60 this afternoon. Totally bemused.

[WarrenB]

lvatscorpio said:

... Many many times at 1 2 or 3am I am on 8 or 10 lanes of empty road dodging hedgehogs and tumbleweed when all of a sudden 40! And this stays for miles even into the next county and apart from the odd taxi or a couple more artics there is absolutely NOTHING about!...

I've had this on more than one occasion. Annoyingly on one occasion I've been slowed down to 40, then the next set of gantries didn't have anything displayed at all. Did this mean I had to stay at 40, or could I accelerate back up to 70?

Didn't fancy either dawdling or getting speeding fines, so came off at the next junction and stuck to the A roads as I was nearly at my destination anyway.

[WonkeyDonkey]

Just as I was getting off the m42 a few weeks back I noticed just after the junction the warning of pedestrians in road.

And that's just as I drove past a young woman walking towards me along the hard shoulder.

No warning prior to that, had to phone the police as I was getting off to warn them she had already passed the junction.

[reglard]

I just ignore them , unless they are attached to a variable speed tax camera.

[Gafferjim]

Ok, I'm not going into chapter and verse about everything but generally.

MIDAS

Anything with "QUEUE" in the message has been set by automatic sensors in the c/way. This is called MIDAS. (Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling) go and look it up. Midas settings don't need a patrol to check the area, they'll normally clear themselves in time
The system will not allow step downs of speeds greater than 20 mph, so if you've seen a 30, there will have been a 50 prior to it.
MIDAS checks the sensors approx every 4 minutes, to clear the setting, it needs to have counted a specific number of vehicles passing over the sensor at the posted speed or above it, it will then either lift the speed setting or clear it.
One setting that throws drivers is where there is an exit slip-road and traffic is congested on it, the signal at the approach to the slip-road will set with fairly sever speed limits to stop numpties crashing into the back of the queuing traffic. Exit slip-roads where there is good visibility of any queuing traffic, the Midas system has been disabled on the slip-road so it won't happen. Slip-roads where visibility is poor, it's still working (M60 - M62 Eccles interchange comes immediately to mind)
Often Midas can be triggered by one complete moron that decides to change lanes and everyone has to brake harshly, knocking the average speed of traffic down, we've all see / been in one of these ghost traffic jams. It will take a while to get back up to normal. It can also be after a stoppage, ie a rolling block to clear the c/way of debris or a stranded vehicle, it can then take up to 30 mins or more to get back to normal.
A busy motorway will jam solid at about one mile / minute should traffic come to a halt for whatever reason.
.

OPERATOR SETTINGS

Are only as good as the information given.

The next time that you're driving along a motorway that you normally don't drive on a regular basis, just ask yourself, "If I had to report something now, where am I?"
If something, anything is reported in live lanes, or there is a good chance it could go into live lanes, the operator HAS to set signals, There is a strict policy on just what has to be set.

A report is classed as UNCONFIRMED unless the information has come from a reliable source, ie. HETO, POLICE, FIRE, HE Workforce, or is found on CCTV, Any of these the report is then classed as CONFIRMED and relevant signs / closures can be set.
Any of these operator setting cannot be cleared until authorisation comes from either a HETO or POLICE patrol that has either dealt with the incident, or has searched and "NO TRACED" it. Or by the roadworks foreman if it's about roadworks.

Certain reports warrant message information that refers to the nature of the incident, ie. Animals, Pedestrians, Accident, On-coming vehicle, Roadworks. with the Animals / Pedestrians / Accident, you'll now start to see messages of "REPORT OF................" Which obviously means that there's been a report, but as yet is not confirmed.

"ONCOMING VEHICLES" An awful dilemma of how many signals do you set? You have to set 20's (Policy) but consider what could be your oncoming vehicle...............
1) A Geriatric driver not used to motorways and has gone down the wrong slip-road, Happens often at services. Normally, but not always, they'll work it out and pull over onto the H/S.
2) A Foreign vehicle.
3) Criminals trying escape police.

There is also a time element, How long from seeing the incident did it take for the informer to stop to make the 999 phone call?
The 999 call will go through to the police force where the phone tower is located (If you're near the M6 / M62 junction, that could be any one of 3 police forces) The police operator will make a log in the computer, hopefully getting all relevant details, they will then send it to their motorway desk, who will forward it to the HE control room, who will then have to set signals. How much delay in each stage if operators are busy? Has the correct C/way been passed? (That's why both c/ways are set now) how far has the vehicle travelled?
So how far would YOU set signals??????

One other setting that you'll see, Anything with "INCIDENT" in the message obviously doesn't fall into any of the predetermined messages explained earlier.
It Is also used for "Police incidents" Usually a potential suicide from an over bridge, with speed setting at 30 or less.

AUTOMATIC SETTINGS

Another auto settings is the "10 miles to J##, ## minutes" There are ANPR type cameras at certain points, these read the last 3 letters of number-plates, remember a small group of plates, and time them to the next point, then set the time up (I hated these, because if there was an incident within those points they would then be telling lies, I always tried to over-write them, but it's not always possible.)

FOG & HIGH WINDS are now normally set automatically, but can be set manually if requested by a patrol

NTIC SETTINGS (Notional Traffic INformation Center. It's got a new name now but I can't remember it)

These are responsible for messages telling you of closures miles away (Helpful for long distance drivers)
Also for the 'Campaign messages' "IS YOUR CAR READY FOR WINTER" "THINK BIKE" "CHECK YOUR FUEL" etc etc.
They also post about potential hold ups for events in the next week of so, Ie "SILVERSTONE BIKE GP (date)"