RE: Ford Focus RS vs. Honda Civic Type R - the video

RE: Ford Focus RS vs. Honda Civic Type R - the video

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Discussion

nickfrog

20,872 posts

216 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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rb5er said:
nickfrog said:
4wd comes last out of the 3 for me though, for a variety of reasons.
Curiosity as I have seen you state this a few times and it's quite a rare opinion. What awd cars have you driven as your profile only shows 1 very benign haldex car....
It's a very widespread opinion otherwise you would see loads of 4wd cars on track days. I have driven a number of 4wd cars on and off the track, all sorts of torsen audis, scoobys and Evos (including a track prepared TM). The S3 was a bit of a mistake tbh, I didn't even test drive it. And that was before I got into track driving.

NJH

3,021 posts

208 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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4wd only improves traction under power. I don't know how many times this has to be said for people to get it.

Splats

625 posts

161 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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NJH said:
4wd only improves traction under power. I don't know how many times this has to be said for people to get it.
That's still half the corner if you get on the gas at the Apex. In the case of cars like the EVO, GTR and Focus RS with active torque vectoring, that can be pre-apex in some cases.

Also, I don't understand the obsession with track driving. Most owners of performance cars haven't been on track more than a handful of times in their life and only a tiny percentage would be regular track goers. Those that are, probably don't use full interior road/family based cars anyway.

I personally view all track times and track performance discussions on a road car as something of a red herring. The only track I'd consider paying some attention to is the Ring because it's about as close to a normal road environment as you are going to get. Even then, it still favours outright horsepower.

rb5er

11,657 posts

171 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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NJH said:
4wd only improves traction under power. I don't know how many times this has to be said for people to get it.
Who said otherwise? So thats coming out of every corner after braking then.

rb5er

11,657 posts

171 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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wemorgan said:
All evidence shows that the most of the UK and most of Europe are dry for most of the year.
Just admit and be happy you prefer the RS for the minority of wet days, which is fair enough.
There's no need to invent a climate that doesn't exist.
Correct on your 1st point. Rainfall for just 145 days of the year in SE England. What you have missed though is that often that rain is still on the roads the next day having not dried out so most of the year the roads are at least damp. Not inventing any climate, these are indeed the facts. Majority of the time the roads are wet and even more so in the North and West of the UK.

2 PH tests of these cars coincidentally on very dry, sunny days. I just said it would be interesting if the conditions (and reviewer) didn't always favour 1 car.


Edited by rb5er on Thursday 23 June 21:56

nickfrog

20,872 posts

216 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
quotequote all
Splats said:
Also, I don't understand the obsession with track driving. Most owners of performance cars haven't been on track more than a handful of times in their life and only a tiny percentage would be regular track goers. Those that are, probably don't use full interior road/family based cars anyway.

You're quite right. Traditionally, road cars don't work on track and vice versa. But over the past few years things have evolved a bit, and some road cars manage honourably on track with very minimum enhancements that don't compromise their daily use. You're also right that a small number of performance car drivers never track them. Which is a shame.

Splats

625 posts

161 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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nickfrog said:

You're quite right. Traditionally, road cars don't work on track and vice versa. But over the past few years things have evolved a bit, and some road cars manage honourably on track with very minimum enhancements that don't compromise their daily use. You're also right that a small number of performance car drivers never track them. Which is a shame.
My problem is and always has been the cost. I'd love to take my FRS on track when it arrives but I doubt I will as I know in the heat of the moment I'll push it as hard as I can. Then you are looking at track day fees, lots of fuel, expensive insurance, 4 wrecked tyres and considerable reduction in brake life.

LaurasOtherHalf

21,429 posts

195 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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Matt Bird said:
I would love to try the Civic on some more aggressive tyres, I suspect it would be great. As for the everyday stuff it's hard to call; I think the Civic is perfectly liveable despite a few little gripes, but I've not spent long enough in the Focus to draw any meaningful comparisons. Hope to address that soon!

Cheers,


Matt
How long do you have your long termer for? I'd be more than happy to provide mine for a comparison piece, we have some cracking roads up here (cumbria/scottish borders) but even better would be a track day I guess.

Feel free to PM me through here if it's of interest.

neil-935ql

1,079 posts

105 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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So the type r is a better car , it does seem a good all round package and looks like it drives very well , but there is one massive problem for me , how the thing looks it really is not good , I have tried to like it , but no good . the blue is best colour , but I still could not part with my cash for a car that looks like that , maybe I am just too old and boring , compare to a golf R and the focus so much better looking , I liked the original type R

nickfrog

20,872 posts

216 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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Splats said:
nickfrog said:

You're quite right. Traditionally, road cars don't work on track and vice versa. But over the past few years things have evolved a bit, and some road cars manage honourably on track with very minimum enhancements that don't compromise their daily use. You're also right that a small number of performance car drivers never track them. Which is a shame.
My problem is and always has been the cost. I'd love to take my FRS on track when it arrives but I doubt I will as I know in the heat of the moment I'll push it as hard as I can. Then you are looking at track day fees, lots of fuel, expensive insurance, 4 wrecked tyres and considerable reduction in brake life.
It isn't cheap, but worth every penny IMO. 1600kgs and £34k doesn't lend itself well to track, I don't blame you. I remember reading how hard the FRS was on its consumables on track. That's where for me the outgoing Megane RS Cup at £18k/£19k new even with leather Recaros and 1350kgs make a lot of sense even against RWD cars. I run semi slicks, track friendly pads and RBF660, which was an almost cost neutral upgrade against OE parts.

topless360

2,763 posts

217 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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The driving position of both cars is putting me off. In the Civic the speedo is obscured by the steering wheel, and the Focus is supposedly a high seating position.

That said I haven't said in the FRS yet...

xRIEx

8,180 posts

147 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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nickfrog said:
MrBarry123 said:
YOU CAN'T GO FASTER AT ALL TIMES IN AN AWD CAR!!!!!

For goodness sake. AWD allows more effective acceleration in certain situations. It does not create cornering grip.
rb5er won't understand that adding weight actually reduces lateral grip as this is counter intuitive. He refuses to understand the basics of car dynamics (the traction circle) and thinks that anyone who does is condescending. Classic binary thinking.
And then he will talk about rally cars who are essentially designed to work in loose surfaces in competitive environments.
Again, I am glad 4wd road cars exist, each to their own.
I'd appreciate an explanation. AIUI, friction between two surfaces is a function of area of contact, coefficient of friction and force - so more weight on the tyres increases the force. Of course, I know the extra weight increases the inertia of the car and centrifugal/centripetal forces. I'm assuming from what you're saying that the extra friction provided by higher weight is not sufficient to counter the extra reluctance to change direction, can you explain why?

Splats

625 posts

161 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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topless360 said:
The driving position of both cars is putting me off. In the Civic the speedo is obscured by the steering wheel, and the Focus is supposedly a high seating position.

That said I haven't said in the FRS yet...
I sat in the standard and CS focus RS back to back last weekend and the standard seats are nice and low - you feel like you are in the belly of the beast. The CS seats are noticably higher but no more so than my Leon FR. I nearly wobbled but have stuck with the CS for a number of reasons. Besides, there's rumours of companies working on a solution to lower them.

jonm01

817 posts

236 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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Yes, the Civic is great. On a track and when using R mode. And in the dry. Unfortunately, the R mode is unusable on a normal road and the car looks horrendous. Still, `i would probably love it too if Honda gave me one to drive for a year for free.

LaurasOtherHalf

21,429 posts

195 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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topless360 said:
In the Civic the speedo is obscured by the steering wheel
Not for me it isn't , nor my wife or mate who has driven it confused

You know the steering wheel is adjustable don't you?

Steven_RW

1,727 posts

201 months

Thursday 23rd June 2016
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rb5er said:
Also rather than go on about the Focus having superior tyres rather than a fantastic awd system why not test one without the upgraded alloys and cup tyres?

Edited by rb5er on Thursday 23 June 19:31
I believe the focus was on michelin SuperSports. Those are standard on the base alloys. Well, my fathers car has them and he didn't upgrade his alloys.

Also, it's clear the tester thinks the type r is more fun. He just does. I can't see how we can argue that. It all seems a bit silly at the moment.

RW

topless360

2,763 posts

217 months

Friday 24th June 2016
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
topless360 said:
In the Civic the speedo is obscured by the steering wheel
Not for me it isn't , nor my wife or mate who has driven it confused

You know the steering wheel is adjustable don't you?
I know but that would compromise my driving position. I sit with the seat lowest, a slight bend in the leg when the clutch is down, and upright enough to have a bend in the arms when putting my wrists at the top of the wheel.

The only way to get comfy is to have the top of the wheel in line with the speedo. I don't understand why they have to have the speedo just above the rev counter, it means that you can't use the full range of the steering wheel's adjustability.

I'm 6ft by the way so hardly an abnormal size.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Friday 24th June 2016
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I find the Ford really badly styled. Much prefer the Civic in the looks department.

The front end of that Ford, especially in white looks bloody awful.

HJMS123

988 posts

132 months

Friday 24th June 2016
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Splats said:
I sat in the standard and CS focus RS back to back last weekend and the standard seats are nice and low - you feel like you are in the belly of the beast. The CS seats are noticably higher but no more so than my Leon FR. I nearly wobbled but have stuck with the CS for a number of reasons. Besides, there's rumours of companies working on a solution to lower them.
I heard that after the first few press releases/journo reviews Ford were working on lowering the CS seat base before the firts lot of cars had been delivered. I don't get how they can make this mistake over and over again, it is the same issue with every car they release!!

AMGJocky

1,407 posts

115 months

Friday 24th June 2016
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rb5er said:
You never take your car out early on a Sunday or late at night for a blast when theres no traffic? Maybe you're not that interested by it anymore.

Imo in fwd cars limited traction is always a limiting factor in anything but bone dry conditions.

I remember in 2009, the cries of "focus RS only fwd? Rubbish". Now it's "who needs awd? That must be for people that can't handle the ferocity of fwd" rofl
You've clicked on the wrong thread mate - you want to be here http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...