RE: Ford Focus RS vs. Honda Civic Type R - the video
Discussion
Splats said:
That's still half the corner if you get on the gas at the Apex.
In this part of the corner the Focus RS clearly has an advantage but the Type R isn't that bad there either with its diff.A german magazine tested different types of mechanical limited slip diffs and the Type Rs diff was far ahead of the other usual diffs like e.g. the Corsa VXRs or the old FRS in terms of traction out of corners.
And in wet conditions on a wet track the Type R managed to beat AWD cars like a 300 hp WRX STI. (See the autotrader comparison the FRS-fans love).
You can clearly see that a lot of people here are founding their opinions on the FWD-disadvantages on cars like Seat Leon TDIs, Golf GTIs or the old FRS, but the game has moved on.
Drive the Type R and you will be suprised how little traction issues there are.
Edited by Sitzlord on Friday 24th June 09:48
xRIEx said:
I'd appreciate an explanation. AIUI, friction between two surfaces is a function of area of contact, coefficient of friction and force - so more weight on the tyres increases the force. Of course, I know the extra weight increases the inertia of the car and centrifugal/centripetal forces. I'm assuming from what you're saying that the extra friction provided by higher weight is not sufficient to counter the extra reluctance to change direction, can you explain why?
Because sadly the relationship between a typical tyre vertical load and its friction is not a linear one, it tails off. Mode details here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_load_sensitivit...So sadly increasing the size of the contact patch is not the solution to counter added mass / added centripetal force even if you can ignore the inherent downsides...
The old Chapman "add lightness" mantra remains true
SidewaysSi said:
I find the Ford really badly styled. Much prefer the Civic in the looks department.
The front end of that Ford, especially in white looks bloody awful.
Interesting. Passed a civic in blue yesterday. Loved it. Dad's focus in white looked FAR better in the flesh than in the photos. The "focus" tends to be on the front end from bonnet lip downwards in promo photos but in the flesh, it just isn't the main eye catching area IMO. All IMO, looks are so subjective. I guess I was wondering if you had spent time with one in the flesh, not photos. Photos make it look rank.The front end of that Ford, especially in white looks bloody awful.
RW
nickfrog said:
xRIEx said:
I'd appreciate an explanation. AIUI, friction between two surfaces is a function of area of contact, coefficient of friction and force - so more weight on the tyres increases the force. Of course, I know the extra weight increases the inertia of the car and centrifugal/centripetal forces. I'm assuming from what you're saying that the extra friction provided by higher weight is not sufficient to counter the extra reluctance to change direction, can you explain why?
Because sadly the relationship between a typical tyre vertical load and its friction is not a linear one, it tails off. Mode details here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_load_sensitivit...So sadly increasing the size of the contact patch is not the solution to counter added mass / added centripetal force even if you can ignore the inherent downsides...
The old Chapman "add lightness" mantra remains true
The GTR is very much a case of putting all your eggs in the same tractive basket. Static mass being a good thing for traction, the GTR has both huge mass and super sophisticated 4wd and is a real slingshot car past the apex, almost physics dyingly so. But it has surprisingly (and relatively) low g numbers laterally. I think 1.1 or 1.2.
Sitzlord said:
Splats said:
That's still half the corner if you get on the gas at the Apex.
In this part of the corner the Focus RS clearly has an advantage but the Type R isn't that bad there either with its diff.A german magazine tested different types of mechanical limited slip diffs and the Type Rs diff was far ahead of the other usual diffs like e.g. the Corsa VXRs or the old FRS in terms of traction out of corners.
And in wet conditions on a wet track the Type R managed to beat AWD cars like a 300 hp WRX STI. (See the autotrader comparison the FRS-fans love).
You can clearly see that a lot of people here are founding their opinions on the FWD-disadvantages on cars like Seat Leon TDIs, Golf GTIs or the old FRS, but the game has moved on.
Drive the Type R and you will be suprised how little traction issues there are.
Edited by Sitzlord on Friday 24th June 09:48
For me personally as a farther of 3 I much prefer the colossal boot space, the cantilever fold flat rear seats, the better fuel economy over the RS.
I'm a fan of the CTR's looks too. The fact it's fast and a pin sharp drive are the icing on the cake for me.
Will the RS leave mine for dead on a damp, slippy day? Yep it sure will, as well as a lot of other cars will do because I don't drive like a dick in inclement conditions.
In dry conditions where the roads allow I can have a blast and revel in how it makes me feel when driving or stick on the helmet and rag it around Oulton
lord trumpton said:
Will the RS leave mine for dead on a damp, slippy day? Yep it sure will, as well as a lot of other cars will do because I don't drive like a dick in inclement conditions.
Focus RS sales pitch "Designed to facilitate your need to drive like a D1ck in inclement conditions!"Made me lol
lord trumpton said:
As a CTR owner I can write a list of pro's and cons of both the protagonists in this thread. I chose the CTR for many reasons other than how fast it goes around a track.
For me personally as a farther of 3 I much prefer the colossal boot space, the cantilever fold flat rear seats, the better fuel economy over the RS.
I'm a fan of the CTR's looks too. The fact it's fast and a pin sharp drive are the icing on the cake for me.
Will the RS leave mine for dead on a damp, slippy day? Yep it sure will, as well as a lot of other cars will do because I don't drive like a dick in inclement conditions.
In dry conditions where the roads allow I can have a blast and revel in how it makes me feel when driving or stick on the helmet and rag it around Oulton
It's not about driving flat our or "like a dick". It's about the every day point and squirt stuff. For example, I live in the countryside and at the end of a private track it joins a 60mph road with a corner only 100m or so from the junction. When it's wet and you pull out, it can be a little hairy trying to get up some speed so that you won't caues undue alarm to anyone tanking around the corner at 60mph.For me personally as a farther of 3 I much prefer the colossal boot space, the cantilever fold flat rear seats, the better fuel economy over the RS.
I'm a fan of the CTR's looks too. The fact it's fast and a pin sharp drive are the icing on the cake for me.
Will the RS leave mine for dead on a damp, slippy day? Yep it sure will, as well as a lot of other cars will do because I don't drive like a dick in inclement conditions.
In dry conditions where the roads allow I can have a blast and revel in how it makes me feel when driving or stick on the helmet and rag it around Oulton
The appeal of AWD for me is the point and squirt approach you can take to every day driving at 3/10ths - you never have to worry about rutted roads, mud, or a wet surface and you can enjoy going "quick" without going mental. I used to love my Impreza's for this, even though their 4WD didn't really add any value in the corners. I also loved my S2000 for the comedy factor of gunning it out of pretty much every wet t-junction I came across
My best driving FWD car was probably my Saxo VTS. It was an absolute hoot in the corners with a very adjustable chassis. However, in the wet it wasn't as much fun and that adjustability morphed into in a scary snappy back end (granted, this is chassis dynamics as opposed to being FWD).Maybe I'm intollerant but the only time I ever want wheelspin in a car (in any conditions) is when that wheelspin will translate to power oversteer. The only time I have every enjoyed wheelspin in a FWD car was when I first learned to drive and I used to do comedy burnouts in my mums G-reg Polo 1.3 CL. I got bored of that after about a week.
lord trumpton said:
As a CTR owner I can write a list of pro's and cons of both the protagonists in this thread. I chose the CTR for many reasons other than how fast it goes around a track.
For me personally as a farther of 3 I much prefer the colossal boot space, the cantilever fold flat rear seats, the better fuel economy over the RS.
I'm a fan of the CTR's looks too. The fact it's fast and a pin sharp drive are the icing on the cake for me.
Will the RS leave mine for dead on a damp, slippy day? Yep it sure will, as well as a lot of other cars will do because I don't drive like a dick in inclement conditions.
In dry conditions where the roads allow I can have a blast and revel in how it makes me feel when driving or stick on the helmet and rag it around Oulton
For some reason I can't take to the Focus, I would happily have the civic or megane before it. I am no way a hater of fords, growing up in the 90's the Escort Cosworth Monte was my dream car, I would still love to own one. For me personally as a farther of 3 I much prefer the colossal boot space, the cantilever fold flat rear seats, the better fuel economy over the RS.
I'm a fan of the CTR's looks too. The fact it's fast and a pin sharp drive are the icing on the cake for me.
Will the RS leave mine for dead on a damp, slippy day? Yep it sure will, as well as a lot of other cars will do because I don't drive like a dick in inclement conditions.
In dry conditions where the roads allow I can have a blast and revel in how it makes me feel when driving or stick on the helmet and rag it around Oulton
The thing I don't get is the comments regarding the Focus is faster in the wet/damp. I never want to go for a spirited drive in the wet.
AMGJocky said:
Careful, you'll get lambasted for comments like that as it's the only arena the Focus seems to be able to cope with against rivals.
Really, that's odd given that 90%+ of the worldwide motoring press have put it 1st against all its rivals and have basically declared it the best hot-hatch on sale today. Clarkson himself drew comparisons with the baby Jesus.But hey, what would all these motoring journalists know right? I mean, it's not like they have all driven pretty much every hot-hatch and sports car on sale in 2016? It's not like it's their job to test, evaluate and compare cars?
No, no.....you know better
Splats said:
AMGJocky said:
Careful, you'll get lambasted for comments like that as it's the only arena the Focus seems to be able to cope with against rivals.
Really, that's odd given that 90%+ of the worldwide motoring press have put it 1st against all its rivals and have basically declared it the best hot-hatch on sale today. Clarkson himself drew comparisons with the baby Jesus.But hey, what would all these motoring journalists know right? I mean, it's not like they have all driven pretty much every hot-hatch and sports car on sale in 2016? It's not like it's their job to test, evaluate and compare cars?
No, no.....you know better
king hard. A lot was made when it came out of the functional aero. I wonder to what degree the other cars for which this is claimed but aren't shall we say challenging looking do or do not have functional aero, or turning things on its head is the ugly functional aero of the CTR really just a function of the fact the base underlying car looks a bit of a mess.
HighwayStar said:
But it's not like 90% of those tests are saying the FRS is brillIant and the CTR is just sh!te... For some people the FRS, just doesn't do it for them and the CTR, Megan or whatever is the weapon of choice. It doesn't make them wrong, they've just gone another way. Personally, I buy the car I want and couldn't give a fu*k what other people think of have to say about it but... the general PH for chat is always intriguing, interesting, sometimes ridiculous and funny.
You are absolutely correct and make probably the most pertinent post in this thread or the other. There basically isn't a 'bad' hot-hatch on sale, just varying degrees of good. As I've previously stated in the other thread, it will come down to individual needs/tastes. For me, FWD is a major check in the "not for me" box and I also need 5 doors and a boot. I think the Focus and Leon Cupra (especially ST with Sub-8) are the best looking hot-hatches as well: the Type-R is too much, the Golf R is too little and the AMG just looks a bit odd (and has silly sticky on bits). That's just my personal needs/opinions though and other will differ. I really don't see the need for people to make bold attacking statements against any of these cars.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff