Petition to stop practice of "surface dressing" on roads
Discussion
Riley Blue said:
saaby93 said:
Riley Blue said:
Is there a cost effective alternative?
Use one of those machines that lays road surface properly with a truck stuck to the front pouring in the gravelTakes about the same length of time ( but no weeks either side with slow chippings) same materials better job
Surely its more cost effective?
So for a proper resurface you need to plane off the old surface first. As an example (one of my schemes on the A49 started on Monday night so I've been out supervising the works), on a single carriageway A-road you might be able to plane off 500m in each direction, then lay a 45mm asphalt wearing course, in a night shift.
More often than not, the road will need to be completely closed overnight. The planings need to be taken away, the hot material needs to come in by the wagon and be laid, rolled, cool and harden enough to be driven on..
Whereas dressing can often be done during the day with a lane closure / convoy working, it's cheaper to buy, no planing needs to take place, more can be laid per shift (typically ~15mm think so on average 1/3 the cubeage / tonnage of an equivalent asphalt).
The downside of course is that it makes a mess and isn't a permanent fix.
But as a rough example - basic surface dressing (tar and chip) £8/m2.. The same but with a sealing coat applied within 24 hours £12/m2.. Asphalt £40/m2. Very, very rough estimates but that's the sort of idea.
smithyithy said:
But as a rough example - basic surface dressing (tar and chip) £8/m2.. The same but with a sealing coat applied within 24 hours £12/m2.. Asphalt £40/m2. Very, very rough estimates but that's the sort of idea.
Closed overnight or single lane working?we seem have to close everything these days
The dressing routine needs road closures too
Which is most cost effective overall?
You know as in not the cheapest
Edited by saaby93 on Friday 24th June 21:55
I had my car resprayed a few months ago, on leaving the spray shop with my gleaming car the traffic on the satnav sent me on a round the houses route back to the motorway , unfamiliar town so I just went with it , right up to the point it asked me to turn right down a newly surface dressed road.
It got told to f
k rght off , it wa a st way of fixing roads in the 80s and it still is
It got told to f
k rght off , it wa a st way of fixing roads in the 80s and it still is GreatGranny said:
Local Highway Authorities are responsible and you have no chance getting all or any of them to stop the practice.
There's a problems because drivers travel too fast after application thus throwing up stones and affecting visibility.
Its only a problem for about 24-48 hours until the chippings are either pressed in to the bitumen or brushed up with a road sweeper.
It improves skid resistance and the life of the carriageway surfacing thus saving the LHA money. They are financially stretched as it is.
exactly - the powerfully built are just as much believers in the magic money tree as it appears Brown was ... There's a problems because drivers travel too fast after application thus throwing up stones and affecting visibility.
Its only a problem for about 24-48 hours until the chippings are either pressed in to the bitumen or brushed up with a road sweeper.
It improves skid resistance and the life of the carriageway surfacing thus saving the LHA money. They are financially stretched as it is.
saaby93 said:
Riley Blue said:
Is there a cost effective alternative?
Use one of those machines that lays road surface properly with a truck stuck to the front pouring in the gravelTakes about the same length of time ( but no weeks either side with slow chippings) same materials better job
Surely its more cost effective?
saaby93 said:
Closed overnight or single lane working?
we seem have to close everything these days
The dressing routine needs road closures too
Which is most cost effective overall?x
It depends what class of road it is.we seem have to close everything these days
The dressing routine needs road closures too
Which is most cost effective overall?x
If it's a major route then single lane may not be feasible so night time closure Is used.
Dressing can be done with a rolling closure with stop/go boards. It is a quick process.
The cost to immobilise the plant, materials, labour etc makes resurfacing a lot more expensive.
Perhaps, we're all thinking about the old way of surface dressing- throw some tar down, then some gravel and let the motoring public roll it in.
That's what I thought last year when we got a notice of surface dressing. I came home to find that the surface was almost asphalt in appearance, with no sign of any loose stone. And lo & behold, the surface is still as good as before.
That's what I thought last year when we got a notice of surface dressing. I came home to find that the surface was almost asphalt in appearance, with no sign of any loose stone. And lo & behold, the surface is still as good as before.
Spot on points above.
As a technique it's improving. It's still not a permant solution, but everyone is focusing on cost saving.
Couple years ago we were doing 3km of decent dual carriageway with 45mm asphalt inlays simply because they were a bit tired looking. Now, we're having to jump through a dozen hoops to do half-lane patches deeper than 100mm when the road is falling in on itself.
Anyone familiar with the A5 / A49 between Shrewsbury and Hereford?
As a technique it's improving. It's still not a permant solution, but everyone is focusing on cost saving.
Couple years ago we were doing 3km of decent dual carriageway with 45mm asphalt inlays simply because they were a bit tired looking. Now, we're having to jump through a dozen hoops to do half-lane patches deeper than 100mm when the road is falling in on itself.
Anyone familiar with the A5 / A49 between Shrewsbury and Hereford?
Also not a fan of this system, but for a different reason.
My complaint is that, around here, the warning signs are often left up for weeks so it's human nature not to slow down to the speed posted on every occasion you see them.
When you come across a newly laid section this, at best, leads to chipped paint/windscreens and at worst accidents.
Put the warning signs/speed limit signs up, dress the surface, and as soon as possible sweep the remaining stuff up and remove the signs. Job done.
My complaint is that, around here, the warning signs are often left up for weeks so it's human nature not to slow down to the speed posted on every occasion you see them.
When you come across a newly laid section this, at best, leads to chipped paint/windscreens and at worst accidents.
Put the warning signs/speed limit signs up, dress the surface, and as soon as possible sweep the remaining stuff up and remove the signs. Job done.
I think they're stil rolled, but the idea is that the traffic does the rolling itself once the lane / road is reopened.
https://youtu.be/zfYPHSSQIIk
The micro asphalt style products are better I think. They won't fix severe defects like pot holes and depressions, things like that would need to be pre-patched, but for the cost and ease of application / tidiness of the stuff it's pretty good.
https://youtu.be/RqRTUdQ35mQ
And this is the sort of thing they can use on top of traditional surfacing dressing to seal the stones in and give a much better finish after application. This is just a brand name, there's loads like it, it's effectively a quick setting bituminous spray.
https://youtu.be/jqHSZnsv9iE
But I think the micro asphalt is the best overall. The contractor that does our surface dressing has just got its approval for a new product like this, basically an overlay of coated stones, like an asphalt but thinner, say 15-20mm, so generally won't affect kerb heights in residential areas. Quick application under TM depending on road layout, trafficable soon after, good value for money.
We'd love to be able to rip up roads and do proper, full resurfacing schemes but the budget simply isn't there.
https://youtu.be/zfYPHSSQIIk
The micro asphalt style products are better I think. They won't fix severe defects like pot holes and depressions, things like that would need to be pre-patched, but for the cost and ease of application / tidiness of the stuff it's pretty good.
https://youtu.be/RqRTUdQ35mQ
And this is the sort of thing they can use on top of traditional surfacing dressing to seal the stones in and give a much better finish after application. This is just a brand name, there's loads like it, it's effectively a quick setting bituminous spray.
https://youtu.be/jqHSZnsv9iE
But I think the micro asphalt is the best overall. The contractor that does our surface dressing has just got its approval for a new product like this, basically an overlay of coated stones, like an asphalt but thinner, say 15-20mm, so generally won't affect kerb heights in residential areas. Quick application under TM depending on road layout, trafficable soon after, good value for money.
We'd love to be able to rip up roads and do proper, full resurfacing schemes but the budget simply isn't there.
Edited by smithyithy on Saturday 25th June 00:39
I absolutely hate the fact that they put these surface dressings on, there is literally no up sides in the real world.
A few years ago the council resurfaced some road in the cotswolds near where I was living at the time, they did an incredibly good job, beautifully smooth surface, really grippy, looked great. A few weeks later they came back and surface dressed the roads, but they forgot to do one road. All the roads that got surface dressed needed completely re doing after about 2 years, not just the surface dressing layer, but the whole tarmac layer had disintegrated because of the surface dressing crap.
The road that they forgot to surface dress was absolutely fine, not a pot hole in sight, in fact it is still smooth as silk today, 5 years on, whereas the surface dressed roads are crumbling into oblivion again despite being re done twice and constantly patched up.
Waste of time, effort, money, man power, resources.
A few years ago the council resurfaced some road in the cotswolds near where I was living at the time, they did an incredibly good job, beautifully smooth surface, really grippy, looked great. A few weeks later they came back and surface dressed the roads, but they forgot to do one road. All the roads that got surface dressed needed completely re doing after about 2 years, not just the surface dressing layer, but the whole tarmac layer had disintegrated because of the surface dressing crap.
The road that they forgot to surface dress was absolutely fine, not a pot hole in sight, in fact it is still smooth as silk today, 5 years on, whereas the surface dressed roads are crumbling into oblivion again despite being re done twice and constantly patched up.
Waste of time, effort, money, man power, resources.
It has been calculated that it would take several centuries to resurface all our roads at current rate of progress. The highway engineers I used to work with would have rubbed their hands at the prospect of being able to do so but it's obviously news to some that Council budges have been slashed and slashed again as part of the government's austerity programme post financial crash. It's hard enough to decide whether to cut adult care, school transport, libraries(how that gets the middle classes wound up!)and highways budgets already - so good luck with the petition. Close a school or two ? Mind you it was always good sport to see tory politicians getting it in the neck from tory voters for doing what they said they would do- austerity is great to vote for if it only affects other people ...
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