Petition to stop practice of "surface dressing" on roads

[Tad1984]

They are going nuts with surface dressing in Essex right now, it's bloody everywhere. Please stop! the paintwork is annoying, but every time somebody overtakes (I can't stop them from going over 20) I get a handful of stones smacking the windscreen. It's only a matter of time till one chips it, and that isn't just annoying, it's potentially dangerous too

[grumpyscot]

The council did that 10 years ago to a little lane that runs from our main street down to a B road. Cars (and a local bus only 2 months old together with a police panda car) got covered in tar and scratches from loose chips - claims were put into the council as no warning signs had been put out. Council had to cough up for repairs. They've never resurfaced the lane since - and now it's full of potholes that the bus company is complaining about!

[saaby93]

Hi said:

I absolutely hate the fact that they put these surface dressings on, there is literally no up sides in the real world.

A few years ago the council resurfaced some road in the cotswolds near where I was living at the time, they did an incredibly good job, beautifully smooth surface, really grippy, looked great. A few weeks later they came back and surface dressed the roads, but they forgot to do one road. All the roads that got surface dressed needed completely re doing after about 2 years, not just the surface dressing layer, but the whole tarmac layer had disintegrated because of the surface dressing crap.
The road that they forgot to surface dress was absolutely fine, not a pot hole in sight, in fact it is still smooth as silk today, 5 years on, whereas the surface dressed roads are crumbling into oblivion again despite being re done twice and constantly patched up.

Waste of time, effort, money, man power, resources.

This is what I meant about is it cost effective?
Its not the same as is it cheap

[GC8]

saaby93 said:

Riley Blue said:

Is there a cost effective alternative?

Use one of those machines that lays road surface properly with a truck stuck to the front pouring in the gravel
Takes about the same length of time ( but no weeks either side with slow chippings) same materials better job
Surely its more cost effective?

Rubbish. Complete rubbish.

'Pouring in the gravel'? If you have no idea at all what you are talking about, then why comment?

Youre talking about a paving machine which lays hot asphalt. This is extremely expensive and so is the tarmac.

Surface dressing is actually a brilliant way of lengthening a roads service life, for modest cost. Most of the aggregate used (typically granite, as in the wearing course tarmac referred to above) adheres to the bitumen. It is obvious why more is used than will be retained, and the excess should be cleaned away using a sweeper.

The principal problem is the bell-ends who drive on it and not the process. A secondary issue could be the possibly tardy sweeping, but this is insignificant compared to the issue of imbecilic drivers.

[anonymous-user]

GC8 said:

Rubbish. Complete rubbish.

'Pouring in the gravel'? If you have no idea at all what you are talking about, then why comment?

Youre talking about a paving machine which lays hot asphalt. This is extremely expensive and so is the tarmac.

Surface dressing is actually a brilliant way of lengthening a roads service life, for modest cost. Most of the aggregate used (typically granite, as in the wearing course tarmac referred to above) adheres to the bitumen. It is obvious why more is used than will be retained, and the excess should be cleaned away using a sweeper.

The principal problem is the bell-ends who drive on it and not the process. A secondary issue could be the possibly tardy sweeping, but this is insignificant compared to the issue of imbecilic drivers.

You must have missed the PH guide to forum etiquette, you're only allowed to post if you know absolutely fk all about the subject but hold a really strong negative opinion that you can only express in the vaguest possible terms. Now take your fancy facts and fk off somewhere else

[Belge]

Good to see some helpful and insightful comments, I'll be sure to highlight some of the newer options that seem to be making their way in to the head of roads in Aberdeenshire. Whether a petition such as this is effective or not is down to the publicity one creates with it. That aside, if this practice annoys you as much as it does me, then at the very least, please sign it. In the meantime, if anyone has a steam roller to sell, let me know as it is probably a much more suitable daily driver for our roads up here!

[veccy208]

I do hate driving over 'spray and chip' roads but id rather a stone-chip than a burst sump or banjaxed tyres every 500miles when they stop repairing the road due to costs...... Therefore I'm out.

[shoestring7]

GC8 said:

saaby93 said:

Riley Blue said:

Is there a cost effective alternative?

Use one of those machines that lays road surface properly with a truck stuck to the front pouring in the gravel
Takes about the same length of time ( but no weeks either side with slow chippings) same materials better job
Surely its more cost effective?

Rubbish. Complete rubbish.

'Pouring in the gravel'? If you have no idea at all what you are talking about, then why comment?

Youre talking about a paving machine which lays hot asphalt. This is extremely expensive and so is the tarmac.

Surface dressing is actually a brilliant way of lengthening a roads service life, for modest cost. Most of the aggregate used (typically granite, as in the wearing course tarmac referred to above) adheres to the bitumen. It is obvious why more is used than will be retained, and the excess should be cleaned away using a sweeper.

The principal problem is the bell-ends who drive on it and not the process. A secondary issue could be the possibly tardy sweeping, but this is insignificant compared to the issue of imbecilic drivers.

By 'bell-ends' do you mean cyclists trying to stay upright on on the debris and ste swept into the gutter, anyone on two wheels trying to negotiate a corner or junction on a loose surface, and all the Autoglass customers replacing their windscreens?

SS7

[mph1977]

shoestring7 said:

GC8 said:

saaby93 said:

Riley Blue said:

Is there a cost effective alternative?

Use one of those machines that lays road surface properly with a truck stuck to the front pouring in the gravel
Takes about the same length of time ( but no weeks either side with slow chippings) same materials better job
Surely its more cost effective?

Rubbish. Complete rubbish.

'Pouring in the gravel'? If you have no idea at all what you are talking about, then why comment?

Youre talking about a paving machine which lays hot asphalt. This is extremely expensive and so is the tarmac.

Surface dressing is actually a brilliant way of lengthening a roads service life, for modest cost. Most of the aggregate used (typically granite, as in the wearing course tarmac referred to above) adheres to the bitumen. It is obvious why more is used than will be retained, and the excess should be cleaned away using a sweeper.

The principal problem is the bell-ends who drive on it and not the process. A secondary issue could be the possibly tardy sweeping, but this is insignificant compared to the issue of imbecilic drivers.

By 'bell-ends' do you mean cyclists trying to stay upright on on the debris and ste swept into the gutter, anyone on two wheels trying to negotiate a corner or junction on a loose surface, and all the Autoglass customers replacing their windscreens?

SS7

cyclists shouldn;t be in the gutter ( typical PH to assume they would be )

the other two observations appear to admissions od DWCDA at least , albeit in some cases exacerbated by the surfacing contractor skimping on their reasonsibilities to collect the excess materials ...

[GC8]

shoestring7 said:

GC8 said:

saaby93 said:

Riley Blue said:

Is there a cost effective alternative?

Use one of those machines that lays road surface properly with a truck stuck to the front pouring in the gravel
Takes about the same length of time ( but no weeks either side with slow chippings) same materials better job
Surely its more cost effective?

Rubbish. Complete rubbish.

'Pouring in the gravel'? If you have no idea at all what you are talking about, then why comment?

Youre talking about a paving machine which lays hot asphalt. This is extremely expensive and so is the tarmac.

Surface dressing is actually a brilliant way of lengthening a roads service life, for modest cost. Most of the aggregate used (typically granite, as in the wearing course tarmac referred to above) adheres to the bitumen. It is obvious why more is used than will be retained, and the excess should be cleaned away using a sweeper.

The principal problem is the bell-ends who drive on it and not the process. A secondary issue could be the possibly tardy sweeping, but this is insignificant compared to the issue of imbecilic drivers.

By 'bell-ends' do you mean cyclists trying to stay upright on on the debris and ste swept into the gutter, anyone on two wheels trying to negotiate a corner or junction on a loose surface, and all the Autoglass customers replacing their windscreens?

SS7

Your post doesn't really warrant a reply, but I will offer one anyway. The bell-ends to whom I refer are the motorists who do not drive in a manner appropriate to the conditions, who shower other road users in granite chips.

I sympathise with cyclists and motorcyclists who have to negotiate the roads immediately after the work has been carried out, but this is not a reason to stop the practice.

[Mr2Mike]

Higgs boson said:

It is, if carried out correctly, a cost-effective way of prolonging the life of the carriageway.
The practice is unlikely to abandoned.

Which IME it very, very rarely is, at least around here. There will be furrows of chippings for weeks usualy. It's really unpleasant on a motorbike as well.

How long should it last out of interest? A road I use to get to work had been dressed over the weekend (hence my interest in the thread), but it was previously done last year.

GC8 said:

The principal problem is the bell-ends who drive on it and not the process. A secondary issue could be the possibly tardy sweeping, but this is insignificant compared to the issue of imbecilic drivers.

No. Bell-ends are certainly an aggravating factor (especially bell-ends in large trucks) but the principal problem is the fact that the dressing is badly applied and rarely if ever swept.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 27th June 13:03

[GC8]

It should always be swept. It has to be because you have to use more aggregate than it takes to cover the surface in order that no bitumen is left exposed.

[Mr2Mike]

GC8 said:

It should always be swept.

I don't disagree, it just doesn't seem to get done when it should i.m.e.

[Belge]

Having challenged my local council directly on the issue, I have had a couple of inadequate responses, the latest of which you can read below. If the practice is to remain, then I ask that they at least sweep the excess chippings shortly after the bedding in period (current practice is to often leave it or if they are busy, leaving the mess for over a week.

Re: Surface Dressing within Aberdeenshire
Further to your correspondence with Scott Walker, Principal Roads Engineer, on the
above issue, this has now been passed to myself to review the information given.
The practice of surface dressing is two-fold: to improve road surface friction, and to
seal the road surface from the ingress of water. The former improves the
serviceability (function) of the road, and the latter improves, or extends the road life.
As you will be aware, Councils are under greater financial pressures than ever
before, and ensuring that we derive greatest benefit from every pound we spend is of
utmost importance. To ensure we deliver best value for spend on road surface
maintenance, Aberdeenshire Council has developed a Roads Asset Management
Plan, and Road Deterioration model. The Plan aligns with national research and
guidance – one of the key points being that maximising preventative maintenance
(such as surface dressing) reduces the need for reactive maintenance (patching)
and delays the need for structural maintenance (resurfacing or reconstruction). The
deterioration model allows us to predict future road condition with varying funding
(and therefore works) options.
I recognise that surface dressing is not popular with road users for the period
immediately after its application, and we endeavour to inform motorists with publicity
and site signing. However, the long-term benefits of a substantial surface dressing
programme are well established. Aberdeenshire’s commitment to surface dressing is
probably the single most important factor in our roads being consistently rated as
amongst the best in Scotland (this assessment is carried out by a third party across
the whole of Scotland using automated road surface surveying equipment).
Having reviewed the correspondence from Scott, I believe that he has explained the
process and the rationale behind why the Council carries out this type of
maintenance. This does mean that he will have nothing further to add to subsequent
emails on the same subject and these communications will not be acknowledged.
The Council takes pride in the way in which we deliver our services including how we
deal with complaints. I hope that this letter indicates that we have dealt with your
complaint in a satisfactory way.
Now that you have completed our complaints procedure, if you remain dissatisfied
with the manner in which your complaint has been dealt with, you have the right to
ask the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman (SPSO) to consider your complaint.
The SPSO is the final stage about complaints for most organisations providing public
services in Scotland. Their service is independent, free and confidential.
The SPSO cannot normally look at complaints:
• more than 12 months after you first became aware of the matter you
want to complain about OR
• that have been or are being considered in court.
Address: Freepost SPSO
Telephone: [phone]
Website: http://www.spso.org.uk/contact/index.php
I trust you find this to be in order but if you have any queries regarding the content of
this letter, or if you require further information regarding the Aberdeenshire Council
complaints procedure, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours Sincerely
Philip Leiper I.Eng FIHE.
Roads Manager Formartine, Garioch and Kincardine & Mearns

[coppice]

OK - but you're the Council CFO- which frontline service do you cut to pay for what you want and how do you sell the idea to your members? 'Ok - so we close three more libraries so we can treat the roads better than we did even we could afford not to close libraries (or elder care, education , child protection ). Not too any votes in that'.Welcome to democracy in austerity.

[Trabi601]

GC8 said:

Rubbish. Complete rubbish.

'Pouring in the gravel'? If you have no idea at all what you are talking about, then why comment?

Youre talking about a paving machine which lays hot asphalt. This is extremely expensive and so is the tarmac.

Surface dressing is actually a brilliant way of lengthening a roads service life, for modest cost. Most of the aggregate used (typically granite, as in the wearing course tarmac referred to above) adheres to the bitumen. It is obvious why more is used than will be retained, and the excess should be cleaned away using a sweeper.

The principal problem is the bell-ends who drive on it and not the process. A secondary issue could be the possibly tardy sweeping, but this is insignificant compared to the issue of imbecilic drivers.

You seem to know about this stuff.

My local council seem to be using a slightly different technique this year - initially, you can see they're laying down the traditionally coloured chippings, however, they seem to then be going back over with some kind of binding agent which can be seen from a darkened finish. This isn't just traffic bedding it in, it seems to be part of the process - and there are very few left over chippings on the road.

Any ideas?

[Belge]

Coppice - taking a slightly more educated view on these things, if you do a job properly in the first place, you usually benefit from (in this case) longevity and greater durability without spending any more (or little extra). This means there is no sacrifice on what you could spend on more important things like health care and education because your aren't repairing or re-doing the work as frequently. Our high street is already bald in places and it was only surface dressed 4 weeks ago!

[smithyithy]

Trabi601 said:

You seem to know about this stuff.

My local council seem to be using a slightly different technique this year - initially, you can see they're laying down the traditionally coloured chippings, however, they seem to then be going back over with some kind of binding agent which can be seen from a darkened finish. This isn't just traffic bedding it in, it seems to be part of the process - and there are very few left over chippings on the road.

Any ideas?

As mentioned further back, that's a more recent 'additional' product that more contractors are using now.

Our contractor for surface dressing is a company called RMS and their 'surface dressing' product, or CAUTS (Cold Applied Ultra-Thin Surfacing) as we now call it.

The spray-on product acts as an emulsion of sorts, it can be applied after the initial sweep. It seals the surface and provides a nice black finish. It's about 20% the cost of the surface dressing system, so even though surface dressing is about being as cost-effective as possible, this additional spray treatment is easily added to the works when you've already got the contractor, plant and traffic management out on site.

You'll start to see it more often, it adds a few quid to the job but it's absolutely worth doing. A lot of the time, the gen public won't be able to tell if it's surface dressing or asphalt once it's set.

[Trabi601]

Thanks for that - I used to hate surface dressing with a passion - but this new system really does seem to do the job properly.

[coppice]

Belge said:

Coppice - taking a slightly more educated view on these things, if you do a job properly in the first place, you usually benefit from (in this case) longevity and greater durability without spending any more (or little extra). This means there is no sacrifice on what you could spend on more important things like health care and education because your aren't repairing or re-doing the work as frequently. Our high street is already bald in places and it was only surface dressed 4 weeks ago!

You're right- but sadly it costs more. Not a case of being 'more educated ' so much as realpolitik I think.