Labour self-destruction

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Discussion

TLandCruiser

Original Poster:

2,788 posts

197 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Seems labour is falling apart, atleast 10 resignations reporting by Sky news over the leadership challenge of corbyn, with David Lammy urging parliament to block the referendum dispite corbyn saying the decision stands. Be interesting to see how the infighting plays out and if they end up going in another direction.

http://news.sky.com/story/1717728/live-labour-at-w...

glazbagun

14,257 posts

196 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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They're fools. The Tories have just shot themselves in the knees and the head and Labour are still bickering over the post-milliband leadership debate.

Unless they have someone killer actually lined up and ready to go they should close ranks behind what they've got and ride the wave of public hostility. The Labour party membership chose Corbyn out of all of the dross they put up last time.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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They appear to think there is going to be a general election before the end of the year and those within the party with common sense know Corbyn won't stand a chance.

D-Angle

4,467 posts

241 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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If anything the Conservatives should be fast-tracking their own leadership change and calling an election to take advantage of this. Labour are shipping votes already and this won't help. There is talk of JC re-standing for the leadership and given the nature of his support, he could win again, which would leave them sitting ducks at the box office.

glazbagun

14,257 posts

196 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
quotequote all
D-Angle said:
If anything the Conservatives should be fast-tracking their own leadership change and calling an election to take advantage of this. Labour are shipping votes already and this won't help. There is talk of JC re-standing for the leadership and given the nature of his support, he could win again, which would leave them sitting ducks at the box office.
That's what I'd fear- Corbyn is actually popular with a lot of Labour voters. If they showed some unity behind Corbyn they could succeed in making the Tories look divided. If they try to bin him and he survives, they'll have even less chance than they do now.

VolvoT5

4,155 posts

173 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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glazbagun said:
That's what I'd fear- Corbyn is actually popular with a lot of Labour voters. If they showed some unity behind Corbyn they could succeed in making the Tories look divided. If they try to bin him and he survives, they'll have even less chance than they do now.
^This. I'm sure Corbyn if given support would have done better; many of the most experienced MPs even refused to serve in his cabinet but preferred to instead sit at the sidelines sniping. So right from day one the MPs conspired with the media to project the 'unelectable' label onto him. In politics in the UK at the moment if you say something often enough it becomes accepted as fact regardless... a self fulfilling prophecy in Corbyn's case.

Corbyn's eurosceptic views are clearly closer to the country than europhile labour MPs and activists, many of the remain voters didn't do so with much enthusiasm. Trying to pin the blame on him for the brexit vote - well that is ridiculous for many reasons. He did get most Labour voters to vote remain but I think the main issue is Labour has become so far detached from much of its old voter base that quite frankly it wouldn't have mattered who was leading the party, they were going to vote leave regardless as they were so angry at the status quo and wanted to give the establishment a kicking.

This coup is just crazy, they don't even have a credible candidate lined up... everyone that has resigned so far as gone out of their way to say they don't want to stand for leader themselves. Wtf? So they just want to destabilise the party with no plan. And how exactly do they intend to get the member base to vote for an alternative if they don't have a good option lined up.






davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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VolvoT5 said:
This coup is just crazy, they don't even have a credible candidate lined up... everyone that has resigned so far as gone out of their way to say they don't want to stand for leader themselves. Wtf? So they just want to destabilise the party with no plan. And how exactly do they intend to get the member base to vote for an alternative if they don't have a good option lined up.
There's a supreme irony here in that their aim is somewhat closely aligned to the leave campaign's argument for brexit.

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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It just shows what utter contempt they have for democracy.

The referendum result doesn't go their way = lets call for it to be ignored or ask the same question again until we get a different answer.
Corbyn gets elected by getting almost 60% of the party vote (over 40% more than his nearest rival) = let's ask the same question again until we get a different answer.

I hope the Labour party as we know it dies and fragments into smaller pieces. The Scottish electorate have already left them and many in the north of England have too. Labour are essentially just a London based party now with a few branch offices in the North.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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TLandCruiser said:
Seems labour is falling apart, atleast 10 resignations reporting by Sky news over the leadership challenge of corbyn, with David Lammy urging parliament to block the referendum dispite corbyn saying the decision stands. Be interesting to see how the infighting plays out and if they end up going in another direction.

http://news.sky.com/story/1717728/live-labour-at-w...
There's also a petition calling for David Lammy to be replaced by a garden gnome. I kid you not.

handpaper

1,290 posts

202 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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VolvoT5 said:
Corbyn's eurosceptic views are clearly closer to the country than europhile labour MPs and activists, many of the remain voters didn't do so with much enthusiasm. Trying to pin the blame on him for the brexit vote - well that is ridiculous for many reasons. He did get most Labour voters to vote remain but I think the main issue is Labour has become so far detached from much of its old voter base that quite frankly it wouldn't have mattered who was leading the party, they were going to vote leave regardless as they were so angry at the status quo and wanted to give the establishment a kicking.
Unfortunately he campaigned (in a lukewarm fashion) for Remain. Had he gone with his long-held convictions, he'd now be a lot more popular, with Labour voters and the electorate as a whole. Indeed, if he had campaigned for Leave he might be a threat to the Tories in any upcoming GE.

Eric Mc

121,773 posts

264 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Massively ironic, isn't it. When you look at the decisions made by Cameron and Corbyn, they had all been taken to some extent to try and hold rival wings of both their parties together. They have both failed miserably and sent the country down a path which we have no clue as to how it will pan out.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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glazbagun said:
They're fools. The Tories have just shot themselves in the knees and the head and Labour are still bickering over the post-milliband leadership debate.

Unless they have someone killer actually lined up and ready to go they should close ranks behind what they've got and ride the wave of public hostility. The Labour party membership chose Corbyn out of all of the dross they put up last time.
I would assume that they think that if they get a middle of the road candidate with regards to policies then they will stand a much better chance of gaining enough votes. They will not want to go into an election with a socialist even though there's every chance that in four years' time the blame game will be leveled at the tories for Cameron's ineptitude in not being able to keep us in or Johnson/Gove's ability to convince everyone (or at least half of those who could be bothered to vote) that we would be better off out.

I can't see the tories going for a snap election. It is a more difficult move now and in any case, such stratagems don't often work when it is something that has been done, rather than what they will do.

One of the concerns of labour is that the Scots might be a major problem next election.

Smollet

10,465 posts

189 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Derek Smith said:
One of the concerns of labour is that the Scots might be a major problem next election.
Well unless the SNP start to have candidates in England and Wales I can't see how much of a problem they'll be as they totally wiped out Labour north of the border in the last election.

Edited by Smollet on Sunday 26th June 15:20

Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

185 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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I think it's great, but too soon!

They may even get their act together before the next election at this rate. frown

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
quotequote all
VolvoT5 said:
^This. I'm sure Corbyn if given support would have done better; many of the most experienced MPs even refused to serve in his cabinet but preferred to instead sit at the sidelines sniping. So right from day one the MPs conspired with the media to project the 'unelectable' label onto him. In politics in the UK at the moment if you say something often enough it becomes accepted as fact regardless... a self fulfilling prophecy in Corbyn's case.

Corbyn's eurosceptic views are clearly closer to the country than europhile labour MPs and activists, many of the remain voters didn't do so with much enthusiasm. Trying to pin the blame on him for the brexit vote - well that is ridiculous for many reasons. He did get most Labour voters to vote remain but I think the main issue is Labour has become so far detached from much of its old voter base that quite frankly it wouldn't have mattered who was leading the party, they were going to vote leave regardless as they were so angry at the status quo and wanted to give the establishment a kicking.

This coup is just crazy, they don't even have a credible candidate lined up... everyone that has resigned so far as gone out of their way to say they don't want to stand for leader themselves. Wtf? So they just want to destabilise the party with no plan. And how exactly do they intend to get the member base to vote for an alternative if they don't have a good option lined up.
The problem with Corbyn is that he's more in line with the old style labour, the 'old voter base' as you put it, than anyone since Foot, and that history is what the rebelling MPs fear.

The problem for old style labour diehards is that Blair, right of centre, was their longest serving, and most popular, PM, just beating Harry Wilson, and comfortably the longest server continuously. With the demise of the liberal party, at least for a while, there's a gap in the market.

They don't need a 'good' leader, anymore than the tories do. They need someone who will convince the voters to vote for him/her.

How do you know the mentality of the remain voters?






ou sont les biscuits

5,086 posts

194 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Massively ironic, isn't it. When you look at the decisions made by Cameron and Corbyn, they had all been taken to some extent to try and hold rival wings of both their parties together. They have both failed miserably and sent the country down a path which we have no clue as to how it will pan out.
Oh, I think we can guess. In the short term, Recession, a worsening trade deficit, higher taxes and unemployment, and our old British friend, Inflation.

Eventually pan out? God knows.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
quotequote all
ou sont les biscuits said:
Oh, I think we can guess. In the short term, Recession, a worsening trade deficit, higher taxes and unemployment, and our old British friend, Inflation.

Eventually pan out? God knows.
Absolute rubbish!

Even the gods haven't a clue.

We've been sacrificed to short term political and personal advantage.


Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
quotequote all
Smollet said:
Derek Smith said:
One of the concerns of labour is that the Scots might be a major problem next election.
Well unless the SNP start to have candidates in England and Wales I can't see how much of a problem they'll be as they totally wiped out Labour north of the border in the last election.

Edited by Smollet on Sunday 26th June 15:20
Labour will form a coalition with the SNP if it will put them in power. To do so the SNP will demand concessions that labour will nod through with little thought.


grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
quotequote all
Funnier and funnier.

What on Earth gets into our politicians over the EU? Corbyn was a life-long Eurosceptic, he was elected by the PLP because of his principles and yet he throws them out of the window and backs Remain in the referendum.

If he had led his voters to "Leave" he would be the next PM. Instead he'll be a comedy footnote in the history books.

"Maaaarvellous!", as Rimmer would say.

VolvoT5

4,155 posts

173 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Derek Smith said:
How do you know the mentality of the remain voters?
I didn't claim to.... I was just reflecting my observation that many remain voters have said things along the line of "well on balance..", "I don't like the EU but..." and so on. Yes the remain side had plenty of strong voices but I don't think it is particularly controversial to say there were many who voted remain without much enthusiasm and certainly when compared to the leave side pretty much all of whom were very excited about the change they felt their vote would bring.

But to be fair voting for the status quo is never going to be as exciting is it.